Fatalism [chat]
I've been on this kick about what philosophy is for, well, a while now. This Article on David Foster Wallace kinda plays into that. Anyway, read this:
If I fire my handgun, one second from now its barrel will be hot; if I do not fire, one second from now the barrel will not be hot; but the proposition one second from now the barrel will be hot is right now either true or false. If the proposition is true, then it is the case that I will fire the gun; if it’s false, then it is the case that I won’t. Either way, it’s the state of affairs in the future that dictates what I will or won’t do now.
How is that not correct?
38 comments:
"if Taylor and the fatalists want to force upon us a metaphysical conclusion, they must do metaphysics, not semantics. And this seems entirely appropriate."
Damn Straight.
funny cat video
RE: The Gun thing
I read that quote as a guy using inverted cause and effect to imply that it is the same thing as performing an action in anticipation of an inevitability. If a boulder is about to fall on Wile E. Coyote, he might put up a tiny umbrella to shield himself from the impact. His umbrella doesn't make the boulder hit him, the umbrella went up because the boulder was going to hit. If this were the gun metaphor, the gun was fired because the barrel was about to get hot.
But I think that is not the case, but rather the barrel is hot because the gun was recently fired. If this is a problem of perspective, like the equally believable geocentric or heliocentric view of the galaxy depending on available information and perspective, then fine, I guess we'll need some way to blast off from time and view the universe from the space outside of the continuum to prove anything, but I'm ok with a cause-effect view for now where all actions are not dictated by future outcomes.
Shouldn't he be, "I am firing" rather than "I will fire" on account that one second from now is precisely one second from now?
Also, what MA17 said.
Spaghetti Cat
I think "I will fire the gun" is of the proper tense. Firing a gun takes less than a second. That is beside the point, however, as the gist of statement is that a the truth value of the proposition states what must have been done, which as not been done at the point in which the proposition is made. The specific time at which the proposition is made is irrelevant.
Also, what Adam said described my thoughts exactly.
Charmed Cierge
I like WOTLK.
My reply for how it was not correct is "There is no such thing as causality". But anyway...
"but the proposition one second from now the barrel will be hot is right now either true or false."
What I take from this is an insight into the question of whether or not future states have a truth value. If future states have truth value AND there is causality then, yeah, fatalism is teh correct.
I do not think this quote implies the same causal link MA17 described. It's not the case, to use the umbrella metaphore, that the umbrella causes the boulder to fall.
To umbrella the gun metaphore it would be that the statement "one second from now this umbrella is open" is either true or false. That handles the umbrella opening value.
The boulder would be "one second from now Wile W. Coyotee is smashed by a boulder" is either true or false.
If we grant future states truth values then it sets up this "reverse causality" situation. But if future states have no truth value then we can avoid this problem.
Unfortunately we seem to operate with the assumption that future states have truth value. It is commonplace to say "I will be back in town next Monday", for example. But if that statement truly has a truth value then this "wonkey" causal system Fatalism describes gets a boost.
As MA17 said, "But I think that is not the case, but rather the barrel is hot because the gun was recently fired."
The question, though, is whether or not "barrel is hot" had a truth value prior to the barrel being hot. Can one ascribe a truth value to "one second from now the barrel will be hot"?
Grieving Spellblade
I really like WOTLK.
Note: I received the previously linked Staff. The jackass mage who is a jackass got the sword.
"His umbrella doesn't make the boulder hit him, the umbrella went up because the boulder was going to hit."
The question here is whether "was going to hit" denotes a truth value to a future state. If "going to hit" is true then that denotes a causal necessity to prior events from a future act. So if "they are going to hit" denotes truth onto a future state then, yeah, it creates "backwards" causal necessity of events.
The issue Taylor raises of semantics v. metaphysics is pretty damn keen. It's entirely possible to argue that the way language is typically used denotes a fatalistic world view. Think of a game of billiards. "4 ball corner pocket", if understood to be "true", denotes this kind of "reverse" causality. Without any sort of qualifiers to denote possibility rather than actuality a game of billiards is entirely fatalistic given the semantic course of arguing for fatalism.
That's why I like to talk about metaphysics rather than semantics and language. Language is a fucking trap.
Also, I really like WOTLK.
And funny cat videos.
"corelation is not causation?"
By.. truth value.. I assume you mean a definitive truth value, and not a variable one.
No Universally or Existentially bound terms of "Future Truth"?
Yeah... I see it afterwards, with the pool reference.
What you're missing... is implication. In the linguistic sense. Implied context that can be assumed.
The beloved implication of the Imperative Command, for example, as in (OI!!YOU!) "Do this."
New laptop arrived today! Woot.
Oh, truth values for the future. That is interesting.
But wouldn't there be more or less an unknowable number of ways to get to either a true or false condition for the future? And isn't that sort of how horoscopes work? They tell you a future event that you assume is true, and then you fill in the antecedent that makes an entire true statement. There are a lot of ways you can travel a distance over water, and once you do any of them, you'll have a true statement.
There are a lot of ways to get a hot gun, and discounting their relative likelihood, any of them would work, including but not limited to firing the gun.
"What you're missing... is implication. In the linguistic sense. Implied context that can be assumed."
Yeah. "Language Game".
"But wouldn't there be more or less an unknowable number of ways to get to either a true or false condition for the future?"
My guess is that the reply is what Roscoe talked about of assumed contexts. Were Taylor articulate he would have said "One moment from now the gun barrel will be hot as a result of the gun having been fired." If we think it necessary we can keep dumping qualifiers onto that of who fires the gun, how the gun is fired, metaphysical groundings for the existance of the gun and heat.
My guess is that Taylor is lumping all of those qualifiers in under Roscoe's "implied understanding" so he can say "a moment from now the gun barrel will be hot" and assume that people assume all of the same shit he's assuming.
Which is exactly why "Implied context that can be assumed." is an illusion.
If we want to be jerks and pick nits at the contextual qualifications I'd say that we can rearticulate Taylor's point this way:
"One moment from now the gun barrel will be hot as a result of the gun having been fired by me." is either true or false.
"One moment from now the gun barrel will be hot as a result of its being dropped in lava." is either true or false.
"One moment from now the gun barrel will be hot as a result of its having been shoved up my asshole." is either true or false.
So if the asshole one is true prior to the act having been comitted then that explains why the hell you just shoved a gun up your ass.
Also, let me know if this helps: It's not backwards implied causality. it's backwards implied necessity of action.
"Causality" brings about notions of billiard balls and shit. That's not exactly what Taylor is talkig about. It's more necessity of action. It's nigh-similar to causality but I think it is a more precise articulation.
It's more akin to necessitarianism than everyday, ordinary, "this billiard ball caused that billiard ball to move" causality.
"corelation is not causation?"
Of course not.
Indiana members of the electorial college met in Indiana to cast their votes for president and vice president
Fuck Yes.
OMG I love the internet:
"The Bible is an anti-socialist document. Socialist propagandists for over four centuries have claimed that the Bible teaches socialism, but we have yet to see a single Bible commentary written by a socialist. If the Bible teaches socialism, where is the expository evidence?"
WHERE IS YOUR EXPOSITORY EVIDENCE! SHOW IT TO ME!
No, Jesus is not a socialist
and that was fun.
and to respond to no socialist biblical commentary a quick google search proves that wrong. also, if there is no one arguing that there is socialist commentary on the bible, why are some many Christians arguing against it?
the book Socialism and The Bible popped up on a google search.
and
Also, I refuse to grant your premise!
What the fuck is "expository evidence"?
Wal-Mart had a demo version of the handheld Guitar Hero.
I played it. Here is my review:
They did the best they could with what they had.
It is evidence, that is expository, you see.
Brian Lee O'Malley and Warren Ellis have gone to war on twitter. O'Malley is being a whiney bitch (he is full of Resident Evil 5 hate) and warren ellis is bating him.
twitter.com/warrenellis & twitter.com/radiomaru
you creepy, creepy Twitter Fanboy
so?
see o'malley intends on hunting ellis down and killing him.
that is all the entertainment i need in my day
Stay Classy Palin Family
My long, uninteresting search for the movie "Hackers" has reached a successful end. To celebrate, I picked up a bunch of other movies that don't know what to do with all the technology they've based their movies around! Virtuosity! Swordfish! Lawnmower Man! Johnny Mnemonic!...uh...Omega Doom? Does that even count? Universal Soldier: The Return...those last two came packed in with Mnemonic, so...don't blame me.
A couple of weeks ago I also picked up Untraceable and Perfect Stranger because the AV Club was talking about them being bad and confused techno-thrillers! I guess this means I'm now officially collecting movies with questionable and pervasive computer content. Next targets: Tron and Fear dot com.
Suggestions?
For those too busy to watch US:TR, I submit this Synopsis.
the net?
and Antitrust
Live free or Die Hard perhaps?
These are good suggestions. Maybe Firewall would work, too.
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