Daily Show Cliff May Torture Interview
We seem to have stopped talking about torture recently given that, I suppose, we're bored with it or we'd rather argue about Health Care. Here's my question: If one rewatches the Cliff May torture interview from the Daily Show does one find Cliff May to be more sensible than we did at the time of the interview? Going back and rewatching it? I think Cliff May is rationally arguing and Jon Stewart is embracing an idealism which might have resulted from reactionary fervor.
Part 1:
| The Daily Show With Jon Stewart | Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c | |||
| Cliff May Extended Interview Pt. 1 | ||||
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Part 2:
| The Daily Show With Jon Stewart | Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c | |||
| Cliff May Extended Interview Pt. 2 | ||||
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Part3:
| The Daily Show With Jon Stewart | Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c | |||
| Cliff May Extended Interview Pt. 3 | ||||
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8 comments:
Going back, Cliff May comes across as a rational human being in this exchange. He recognizes what laws are, how laws function, and then proceeds to combat the "zomg torture bad" idealism that came from, I'm pretty sure, anti-bush sentiments.
I don't know if he is correct. But he seems far more rational than I initially thought when I watched this back in April or whenever it first aired.
I don't think so..
Torture? Pretty much IS unequivocally bad. That's not idealism, but a recognition of the functionality of the actions.
It doesn't come from anti-Bush sentiments. It might get further fueled by the frustrations of the 'partisan' issues, but it's not a cult of personality thing - if anything torture angst gives rise to Bush hate, and not vice versa.
"Torture is bad." is only sensible once "torture" is defined. The problem Cliff May identifies is that "torture" is not defined except broadly as "shocks the consciousness" or something akin to that.
The line I wish Cliff May would have used in the interview, or any interview, would be: "I agree. We oughtn't torture. Now, define 'torture'."
Stewart is taking "torture" to have a definative meaning and so his argument is founded upon "We tortured; torture is bad." The problem is that he never defines what torture is except in that broad "shocks the consciousness" sort of way.
Now, see, there? You're projecting ONTO May...
Because when May identifies torture as being broadly defined, he's doing so in an attempt to say We Didn't Torture.
Which isn't really an out for him here.
You're looking for a clinical discussion on the nature of things.. which is probably a good thing to look for..
but it's not the point of the discussion that May and Stewart were having. Especially in the context of the information that came out at that time. The Specially Designed Throwing Wall, etc.
The discussion they were having is
"We Did These Acts that rationally appear to be torture!"
"Yes, but is it really torture?"
"Doesn't matter, we still did them, and really, they look pretty damn wrong, and also, less than useful, so whether it's torture or not, still what was the point?"
"Doesn't matter, we still did them, and really, they look pretty damn wrong, and also, less than useful, so whether it's torture or not, still what was the point?"
That, i think, is what moves this from a debate about Torture (the argument Cliff May is having) to a completely different debate.
I think Cliff May is arguing legal definitions. I think Jon Stewart is arguing "ought" and "should".
You don't think Ought and Should don't enter into this?
Considering it's a done deal, and we engaged in actions that we, ourselves, have executed others for, AS TORTURE, seems a helluva lot like Ought and Should are important words to discuss.
Anybody else remember when Clinton spawned this exact debate -- except then it was about his semen?
Have we executed others for performing the actions which were performed? Remember, as Cliff May said: waterboarding ≠ waterboarding
We waterboarded. The filthy japanese waterboarded.
I think Jon Stewart is against waterboarding and waterboarding. I think Cliff May is against waterboarding.
The question is whether it is against the law to waterboard or waterboard.
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