Monday, July 21, 2008

BG Paper Notepad and Sounding Board

So, as everyone's aware, Mikey linked me to Bowling Green's call for submissions on a Comic Book and Popular Culture paper.

I've been hashing out some ideas, and frankly, need a place to list them, disect them, and get input.

Some relatively narrow, and easily researched options:

The Batman Campfire Story - Three seperate versions of the same story, with roughly a decade between each iteration, the story involves kids telling their interpretation of Batman around a campfire. This story is taken across mediums, from the original comic, to the kid's 90s' animated series, and then to a Direct to DVD adult-aimed animation, with differing needs and tones. An interesting discussion of medium and opportunity, as well room to comment on further Batman references ( the cartoon nods towards Dark Knight Returns, the 90's movies, etc)

Riffs on the Superman Origin - The Superman Orgin story is a wellspring for Elseworld/What if type adaptations - What if the rocket landed elsewhere, what if it landed elseWHEN, etc, giving rise to alternative Superman characters, such as the Communist Red Son, the Cleese written True Brit, and so on. This would also have room to discuss Superman analogues, Marvel's Hyperion, who is Government Raised Superman, Invincible's Omni-Man, the forerunner of an alien invasion, Valentino's normalman, the parody character, etc. Raises issues of identity, the immigrant role, political indoctrination, etc.

Costume Changes and Reversions - An examination of the regular occurance of drastically changing a character's costume, and the tendency for these changes to be ephemral, and short-lived. Superman is a great focus for this, with the "Superman Red, Superman Blue" stories (both the original, and the modern 'Electric Superman', the "Death of Superman/Reign of the Supermen" story that introduces a number of Superman replacements, and more. This also has some overlap with the various Alternative 'Elseworld' Superman stories that have the character raised elsewhere. This is on some level a discussion of iconography and nostalgia, as well speaking to temporary aesthetic choices of the comic market ( an 80's costume is not a 90's costume, and neither are a 40's costume)

And a handful of other, less developed, topics and ideas. Some of these would require much more in the way of research material I don't have, some are things I have deep interest in, but unable to pin down a discussion, and some are just topics that haven't quite gelled yet.

DC's Suicide Squad - An Eighties examination of a politically-motivated semi-covert use of criminals (superpowered) to engage in espionage in exchange for sentence reductions. Gets deeply involved in discussions of politics, nationalism and terrorism.

Transmetropolitan - Huner S. Thompson in the bizzare future. I have an absurd ammount of love for this series, deeply tied into discussions of subcultures, material culture, futurism, and politics. Unfortunately, I haven't a clue what I'd like to say about this, and my series is stuck in storage.

DC's Starman - Similarly, deeply enamored of this series, with it's indepth examination of family and history, it links a scattered collection of attempts to keep the trademark on the Starman name, and weaves a tale of DC publishing and continuity history and nostalgia in through a coming of age / recognition of self story.

Morrison's Animal Man or Flex Mentallo - I don't have a thing to write here, but would love to go into something regarding Morrison's structuralism, making his characters cognizant of their existance in a comic book. No way in hell I can discipline myself into keeping this coherrent and restrained, I fear.

An examination/argument for comic books as filling the role of Modern Myth - something I toyed with during Banta's spring term Classical Mythology class. Myths often being on some level simplistic and contradictory, involving larger than life, hypersexualized figures imparting simplistic morality while not exactly portraying the messages they impart. Plenty of places to go from here, what with Kirby's influence all over Marvel and DC - Thor, Herc., the New Gods, the Eternals, etc. Proabably a bit too ambitious.

Anything from Oni, or other Indy comics taht I have? The Flight anthologies are interesting here, but the biggest issue for these is that I don't have access to them right now, so I have no clue what I might talk about regarding them.

Anyways, this is just me, trying to muddle through what I might talk about, and bounce ideas off folks. Any thoughts/disagreements/piqued interests?

Edit: Here's the link to the submissions request


_J_ said...

Do you have the link to the site/.pdf which explains what they want?

Roscoe said...

yeah.. lemme dig it up, edit into the main post.

_J_ said...

This is a stupid example:
When Mikey was back in town we were watching the Daily Show. Rob Corddry was on doing a segment on dancing horses. That reminded Mikey of a time when he watched a girl present a bullshit paper on dancing horses and their relation to or being evident of something I don't remember because of how moronic it was. Suffice it to say that it was incredibly evident that the girl wanted to write about horses and her paper was an excuse to write about horses.

That's not what to do when writing a popular culture paper. And Mikey may disagree with me (as is his right since this is what he does), but I think the paper needs to primarily be about the concept about which one is writing (Nationalism, Gender, Terrorism, Ethnicity) and secondarily needs to utilize the given bit of popular culture (the comic) as an example of that thing.

Kind of like how Mikey's Torture paper wasn't about 24 but rather was about the popular portrayal of torture in television series and how Rush Limbaugh was a moron for thinking that "watching 24" meant "is keen on torture". Sure, we know that he likes 24 and so wrote about it, but that is not evident in the paper.

That's the general criticism I would launch at a few of your examples. It's fairly obvious that your interest in this paper rests primarily on your interest in comics. So it's probably best to acknowledge that.

I want to write about Nietzsche and how ethics is dumb. Ledger's Joker is a wonderful example to use to compliment that primary discussion of Nietzsche and ethics. So the two fit together.

I think that rather than delve into particular components of comics about which you could write you need to define a core concept about which you could write, gather materials which could aid your position on that concept, and THEN find a comic series which can provide an example. Rather than embrace "I want to write about dancin' horseys!" and then bullshit something about dancin' horseys.

I really hope Mikey can provide the full Horsey story. Because it was damn hilarious and enfuriating.

_J_ said...

Also, I'm really proud of you for being able to edit a link into your post.

_J_ said...

"No way in hell I can discipline myself into keeping this coherrent and restrained, I fear."

That's the overall problem I see. Here's how to turn it into a strength:

Instead of talking about a hundred concepts from one series talk about one concept and use examples from a hundred series.

Roscoe said...

that's no good, Jay.

it's only 8 pages, roughly.

13 minutes.

Because I'd only be talking about one concept. But in trying to talk ABOUT it in any meaningful way, I'd need more than that. WAY more.

Roscoe said...

I mean.. I appreciate the advice.

but that specific bit is utterly misread.

Also, how is what you're suggesting any different than what you think I'm doing.

You want to discuss Nietzche. I want to discuss the Joker. Each of us has one half of a discussion.

Why, and I'm not being perjorative here, is your progression correct, and mine incorrect?

What gives your perspective here any more value than mine? Is it just that your perspective starts with classic tradition and mine does not?

_J_ said...

So fit a narrow enough concept to the most meaningful examples.

I dunno.

I think you need to pick a concept and then a comic or comics.

_J_ said...

"What gives your perspective here any more value than mine? Is it just that your perspective starts with classic tradition and mine does not?"

Each of the examples you provide start with the comic and then go to what issues are dealt with in the comic.

That could just be your way of presenting it. From my understanding Mikey's paper started with him watching 24 and then once the process began it flipped.

I'm not saying that you'll write a paper on dancing horses. The little paragraphs are framed to be dancing horses papers.

You're not wrong. I'd just do it differently. I'd start with Heidegger and then go to Buffy rather than start with Buffy and go to Heidegger. When I see someone doing the "buffy to heidegger" I assume the worst.

Roscoe said...

Agreed on your advice, but not on your reasoning. Notably, you can't quite seem to argue for it either, except on a visceral "You Should" level.

but this discussion is aside from what I'm looking to do here.. so.. meh.

I'm not sure I need to pick a concept then an example, but rather, I need to pick a concept AND a pertinent example. If I KNOW Starman, for example, is about nostalgia, history and antecedents.. If I KNOW a comic fits in to this discussion, but I don't quite have it clear what it SAYS yet, how is it wrong to chip away at it, until I do know? And then from there, refashion my work into a paper?

Mind you, I DO know how it fits in, but I'm not sure I'm interested in discussing that for this. The greater story through Starman is what grabs me. The weaving of the nostalgic bits, the previous trademark characters is very interesting, but not what grabs me with the series.

I dunno. Just noting a bias on your part that seems to stem from some severe misunderstandings.

_J_ said...

Is Starman something you could cover in 8 pages?

Wait. Where did you see the 8 pages thing? I went back to the link and didn't see anything about paper length.

The presentation of the idea is 2 pages. And there's no way the presentation would be 1/4 the length of the final paper.

Roscoe said...

Mikey's comment to me. the discussion/talk is only supposed to be about 13 min.

Remind me to move the other diatribe to a seperate thread/post in a bit, too.

Can I cover Starman in that length? Unlikely, in the sense I'd want to talk about the series, and not just the revitalizing and weaving of a new continuity through old disparate trademark elements. Can I cover that topic in the lenght, utilizing Starman as my example? Certainly.

That's why it's in the original post, but not in the serious thought section. It would require a lot more work to refine, and a lot more discipline, and I'm not sure it's a quality paper topic, FOR ME, at the Moment. Truth, with the Starman thing, I think I want to keep taht back for a later paper.

Roscoe said...

though.. the more I write that up?

The easier I think it might be to do and keep tight, clean, and not a rambling mess.


_J_ said...

A 13 minute discussion might merit a recognition of the familiarity of the material to your audience. I would be worried that 7 of the minutes would be "Who the hell is Starman" questions.

Maybe not, though. It is Bowling Green. (I do not know what that means.)

Depending on what you want to accomplish you may focus on a more known example. Or focus on concepts more apt for the times.

Death of Captain America and that whole Iron Man v Captain America v 9/11 bullshit. People can talk about 9/11 for 13 minutes.

Portrayals of 9/11 in Comics?

Roscoe said...

meh.. not a lot of 9/11 in comics to be portrayed.

the immediate Superhereoes Cry and clean up stuff. Hell. I bought one of those..

and.. then.. one comic where it was averted... that I can think of..

taht's about it.

I really think I want to examine the Campfire stuff still. Look at how the format needs adapt the story and character. a mid 80's comic has different needs than a 90's kids cartoon, has different needs than a late 00's (aughts) adult animation.

.. aw, who the hell am I kidding. I wanna do all of these. it's Pseudonym time!

Roscoe said...

the ideas that various profs have thrown up are all interesting too.

Paul Battles considered looking at the changing image of the supersoldier from Cap in ww2 through Wolverine/Punisher in Nam, etc.

Murphy raised the idea of looking at contrasting images of the Joker, or variations on the Bat Orgin.. (which would be neat for looking at the Zorro addition, or the falling pearls, the petulance/guilt of young bruce demanding to go to taht showing.. etc) how the additions alter or add depth..

etc. It's neat to see what everyone's first thoughts are regarding it.

_J_ said...

"looking at the changing image of the supersoldier from Cap in ww2 through Wolverine/Punisher in Nam, etc."

I hate "onion in my belt" papers.

"We can't bust heads like we used to. But we have our ways. One trick is to tell stories that don't go anywhere. Like the time I caught the ferry to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for m'shoe. So I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt. Which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. Gimme five bees for a quarter, you'd say. Now where was I... oh yeah. The important thing was that I had an onion tied to my belt, which was the style at the time. You couldn't get white onions, because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones... "

God damn I hate "onion in my belt" papers. Wait, so your point is that SHIT CHANGES OVER TIME?!


_J_ said...

Note on that last post: I DO enjoy papers about cobblering.

Roscoe said...

But that's not his paper. Rather, his paper would be the changing image and what that says about the time itself.

Surely that's obvious, no?

_J_ said...

"Rather, his paper would be the changing image and what that says about the time itself."

So just write about the time itself.

Roscoe said...

so you don't believe that a work or body of work can act as a lens, through which through which unique insights to a topic can be discussed?

Wait, no, that can't be right. Because that's precisely what you DO, as a Philosopher.

so.. what.. it's because people do it with something you think of as obvious? or because people do it with things you think of as trivial?

_J_ said...

"so you don't believe that a work or body of work can act as a lens, through which through which unique insights to a topic can be discussed?"

It's a question of the utility of the lens and appropriateness of that lens.

Themes and concepts and ideas are obviously conveyed throughout media. Books and songs and movies and chalk drawings and comics and graphic novels and candy wrappers and tool packages all contain (in an odd sense of the word), or perhaps more appropriately indicate in some way the notions and ideas used and appreciated by the individual who crafts them. (That's a premise, by the way, one does not necessarily have to grant.)

But if we do grant that premise...

We can discuss components of society through a Yaz commercial, through a Klondike bar commercial. We can stare at a penny or watch Hello Kitty or listen to Miko Miko Nurse and utilize that as an object of conversation, explore the thing an use it as an example of a plethora of ideas.

What is interesting, what is useful, what is appropriate, is not haphazardly latching onto crap and arguing from the thing to some notion or idea. What's interesting is not staring at a container of Play Doh and constructing lists of extrapolations one can make from that container. What's interesting is not watching Buffy and shouting "Allegory of the Cave!".

What is interesting, academic, sensible, justified, and USEFUL is discerning the ideas in and of themselves, grasping a concept alone and exploring that concept independent of particular manifestations of that concept.

So instead of talking about the 1960s through whatever artifact of that decade we like how about we talk about the 1960s and, where appropriate and useful, bring in particular artifacts to use as examples?

How about instead of understanding Heidegger through an example we understand Heidegger and, when needed, utilize the best possible example to aid others in grasping an idea?

That's my point. It's all good and well that we've reach the sixth grade level of awareness required to identify that "Oh my shits Lord of the Rings contains themes of good and evil!" But maybe it would be more useful to explore good and evil as concepts in and of themselves rather than focus on particular manifestations and uses of those ideas in media created for the sake of turning a profit.

Let's just talk about Nietzsche. If a wonderful example of Nietzsche is presented in a form of media? Hey, let's talk about it for fun.

But let's not delude ourselves into thinking that the Joker needs to be our primary fixation. Let's talk about the thing we're talking about and keep examples relocated to the role of examples.

Roscoe said...

I guess what I'm saying, Jay, and what I've BEEN saying is that you're conflating talking about prior discussion (Allegory of the Cave as discussed by Buffy eps, or a song on Seasame Street or what have you) with talking about new discussions by way of material.

By this, I mean that your primary grievance here is talking about definitory examples. But talking about something covered by a basic touchstone philosopher ISN'T the same thing as talking about a specific materials presentation OF that philosophic touchstone topic.

And the difference between those two gets wider when you step away from that topic to something like "The Sixties" or "Family" or what have you.

I refuse to accept that it is somehow less academic to look at, for example, Dennis O'Neil's or Christopher Nolan's or Cesear Romero's interpretation of the Joker as an example of whatever one might wish to look at it for, than it is to discuss that thing and then point out how that Joker interpretation reflects it.

There's no difference between the two except scope. The first sets it's scope as the Joker Portrayal, and how it represents the Theme, while the second looks at the Theme and how the Joker acts as an example of it.

Your preference for the latter is not Academic, but rather, Personal. It's Adam's Other People Are Fans of It, so I'm not writ large.

Yes, LOTR has themes of good and evil in it. How is it less academic to look at "Themes of Good and Evil as Presented in LOTR" than to look at "Themes of Good and Evil", such as those shown in LOTR?

The only difference there is scope, is boundary. You're offering me the equivalent of "You can't talk about Twain's Coming of Age stories, you have to talk about Coming of Age, and point to Twain."

Roscoe said...

I'm thinking more about this, becuase I've hashed out a financial aid issue and my housing deadline, and the work I have is.. slow.

I guess the thing is.. You have a very definitive idea of what Academic means to you. But you have no way of expressing it which doesn't devolve into "Because I like this and not that".

Which, frustratingly, is what you're saying. I feel like what you're trying to say is Discussing something well is academic, discussing it half-assed is not. But it seems like you're making the connection that this is discussed well, it's academic, and so I like it / I am annoyed by this becuase it doesn't discuss the topic well, and therefore it's not academic.

Becuase you can't really make the distinction between the two clear, without going to a focus upon a specific topic. And that's no different than focusing upon specific material and looking at how that material addresses the topic.

You disregard the second becuase you don't feel it's done well, but you CLAIM to disregard it becuase it's not academic. Do you see what I'm trying to say at all, or am I just talking in circles?

Roscoe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Roscoe said...

I'm writing up a momentary examination of Nostalgia as an influence upon the Starman series.

and.. well.. I'm going to want some input in a bit.

Roscoe said...

DURR. Of course. in attempting to note out why the Robinson Starman really fits this, I stumbled on why I want to write about it for this, AND a better method of discussing it, a better focus.

DC's idea of "Legacy Characters" and how that is an encapsulation of History, Nostalgia, and Antecedents.

Becuase Starman is the series that makes the whole concept into something that WORKS.

Roscoe said...

clearer format/expression coming in new post, as I get it formatted, and formed... and sent off to profs, for input as well.

_J_ said...

"The only difference there is scope, is boundary."

That's the point.

If we talk about Good and Evil as concepts in and of themselves then that discussion applies to all interpretations and portrayals of Good and Evil. If we want to use LOTR or Hello Kitty or Mighty Mouse as an example of some component of that? Keen.

But if we're just talking about Mighty Mouse the conversation is only useful within the scope of Mighty Mouse. That limited scope minimizes the utility of that information, the degree to which that information is useful. We're concentrating on such a finite scope for analysis that the information and conclusions we reach are useless except within that finite scope.

If we start the conversation at a particular, contain the conversation to only that particular, and attempt to work to a universal we'll skew the entire conversation by limiting ourselves. That is what happens when we talk about Good and Evil through Star Wars, Nationalism through Indiana Jones, or Skepticism through The Matrix. We limit the conversation and our understanding by restricting ourselves to one particular example.

But even if we avoid that problem, if we can understand the concept of Justice and rather discuss it in terms of a comic? We'll either limit our conversation of Justice by focusing only on the particular manifestations of Justice within the source material. OR we'll approach the topic with a much larger scope and utilize examples from particular sources to illustrate larger ideas.

If we're limiting ourselves to a finite, restricted view of a concept within a source then the conversation is only useful within that context, so fuck it. If we're going to extrapolate from that particular to get to a universal and so make it applicable to a much larger scope? Then just start with the larger scope in the first place.

If the destination is large scope just start with large scope. If the destination is small scope don't bother with it. If we want to start with small scope and work to large scope? Then we have to explain why we're starting with small scope. And that's more likely than not going to be couched in some sort of biased preference which does not aid the conversation at all.

Roscoe said...

So, then Academic means whatever context you want the discussed material to apply to?

That's ludicrous. Rather, again, I'm looking at your disagreement here not being with the Academic nature of the discussion, but rather, the personal value of it.

If the initial inciting discussion begins by telling you it's really only discussing things within these boundaries, and then proceeds to do just that, well, I don't see that as being unacademic, I see it as having the potential of not being worth my time.

Which is I think what I'm trying to communicate to you. You're using Academic as a placeholder insult for your preference, and that's weaksauce.

You're indicating that what you would prefer is Academic, by virtue of your prefering it, not by virtue of the material, and by implication, disparaging what you wouldn't prefer as unacademic.

_J_ said...

"I don't see that as being unacademic, I see it as having the potential of not being worth my time."

That's fair.

Roscoe said...

Also, You smell of Wee, and are an inferior scorn artist.

_J_ said...

Oh no you didn't!

Roscoe said...

Just sayin'. We were getting a bit to close to copecetic.

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