Sunday, July 20, 2008

Ledger's Joker: Not the Crazy One

More and more it seems to me that the philosopher, being of necessity a man of tomorrow and the day after tomorrow, has always found himself, and had to find himself, in contradiction to his today: his enemy was ever the ideal of today. So far all these extraordinary furtherers of man whom one calls philosophers, though they themselves have rarely felt like friends of wisdom but rather like disagreeable fools and dangerous question marks, have found their task, their hard, unwanted, inescapable task, but eventually also the greatness of their task, in being the bad conscience of their time.

Heath Ledger's Joker is not a crazy person, not a deranged sociopath preoccupied with murder or death. Joker's aim is not personal vendettas or individual, focused acts of strife. The Joker is not concerned with wealth, with power. The Joker is not even concerned for his own well-being or self-preservation. Heath Ledger's Joker, the most accurate portrayal of the fictional Joker character, is a Joker who is wholly sane, wholly cognizant of his place within the universe. And even though you might not recognize it, and the film, as is its obligation, masks it? The Joker is the one who is right. The Joker is correct.

That's what is so amazing about philosophy, about critical thinking, about objectively assessing reality and achieving a full, total appreciation for the way things are. When one does that, when the curtains are thrown aside and a character accurately assesses reality and acts appropriately they are portrayed as the villian, they are the one cast aside. They are the one who those addicted to the fabricated system feel compelled to stop. The Athenians killed Socrates. The Church censored Galileo. Batman beat up The Joker.

That's what is so amazing about Dark Knight. Dark Knight is a celebration of the herd mentality, the preservation of the social system of fabricated rules and accepted norms which aids continuation of the species. Even Batman, for his part, is a champion of that system and despite his ability to recognize its problems his goal, first and foremost, is the protection and continuation of the system. The Joker has no such problem, no such self-inflicted dilemma. The Joker's entire motivation throughout the film is to drag Gotham, kicking and screaming, out of the cave and into the light.

In describing the natural state of man Hobbes wrote: "the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." The real conflict in Dark Knight, the actual fight and dilemma, is not Joker versus Gotham or Joker versus Batman. Dark Knight portrays the conflict between truth and idealized, false, fabricated faux-normalcy; our struggle against reality. Joker in his scarred, ugly, tattered self is that truth, that solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and shorty reality in which we live. Batman's character, interestingly enough, is clean, conformed, polished. Yet that conformity, that cleanliness and polish are in actuality little more than fabricated armor meant to protect his frail self from truth. Even the Batman identity itself is little more than armor to shield Bruce Wayne, the true person, from reality.

That's why I'll continually offer tongue-in-cheek praise for Dark Knight again and again. That's why I'll probably leave work early to catch another matinee. What is compelling is not the cinematography, the action scenes. It's not an enjoyable film or a compelling story. Dark Knight is a celebration, a defense, if you will, of humanity turning a blind eye to the truth. Dark Knight is a cinematic argument in favor of clinging to life within the cave. Batman is our inability to accept reality and our struggle against the facticity of our being. Heath Ledger's Joker is truth. And our reaction to Joker belies our fundamental nature as a frightened herd clinging to our self-sustained safeguards which protect us not against an external threat, but rather the objective, empirical truth of the world in which we live.


Andrew said...

you still haven't seen the movie have you?

Caleb said...

Screw Hobbes. Screw him right in his solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short natural state of man. He waxes with washing machines to the state of nature -- not knowing to know from fun.

Roscoe said...

Here's the biggest problem with your read on the Joker.

The Joker lives to confuse you. LIVES. He lives to make you doubt or believe.

You're reading into the Joker precisely what the character wants you to read into him, nothing less.

Did it pass you by that the Joker is and does everything he says he's not? He's not a schemer, he's not a plotter?

The Joker is, first and foremost, a demagogue. He is What you Make him to be.

What does it say about your read that the Joker fails in his stage distraction in the climax? That is, he fully expects one of the ferries to do in the other. and knowing the Joker, pressing the detonator would have done something far worse than simply what he said.

Yes, the entire scene was a misdirection, pay attention to the left-hand Ferry plot, while the right hand manuvers madman Harvey.

But Ledger's Joker was still annoyed that neither boat fell for his game. They didn't cling to safeguards, but to something else.

Big Scary Not-Micheal-Clarke-Duncan pulls his own Joker, and convinces the Marshall to give him their detonator "to do what you should have done 10 minutes ago".. and pitches it out the window, removes the choice.

While Blustery Mc Screw-Em, They Made Their Choice is all ready to follow suit with the Joker, but falls prey to.. what.. self-guilt? consence? Something "noble", surely.

Either way, that scene seems to knock out your underpinnings, no?
Because the people don't cling to anything in that scene but themselves.

When dealing with the Joker? Recognize the stage magic trick. It's probably the best theme in the movie, and it's never alluded to once. Stage performance is all about making the audience believe. "I Believe in Harvey Dent".

Roscoe said...

Sneak back to io9 and read the Point and Counterpoint articles on Dark Knight...

Because... there's something very interesting there. Namely that both Newitz and Macmillan are.... correct.

And you're correct.

And I am.

And I suspect Andrew and Caleb are, despite thinking we're both nuts.

The film is arguably conflicted, and certainly open to scads of interpretation. This intruigues me. Doubly so, when I start noting the elements that tie back to or reference/homage small moments in comics, without being those moments. At all.

The movie, and everything associated with it.. is conflicted... which.. seems to be as it should be. Batman shouldn't be a "hero", despite how terrible Gotham is... he's a borderline brutal hybrid between a Fascist and a Libertarian in all caps....

And yet, he's IS a hero in Gotham.. the town without a Middle Class. You've got the poorer folks.. and the elite. I'm not exactly fond of the vehicular nature of Nolan's Gotham, but even that seems.. to make some sense... even as it seems to divorce a time honored element of Batman, the rooftop acrobatics..

It's.. just a very well done movie that takes it's internal conflictions, all it's flaws.. and makes them centerpieces for interpretation.

Roscoe said...

Awww Hells Yeah

Roscoe said...

Heads up, J.

I lied, and you have through the 31 to get a submission sent out, if you want to write this up.

Note, taht's submission.. a 2 pager, not the whole paper.

You really ought to, by the way. I'm noting out a series of things I might have some luck writing, and hoping to post them as a full blog post to get some feedback soon..

kylebrown said...

"Big Scary Not-Micheal-Clarke-Duncan"

Are you kidding? That was Tommy Lister.

Roscoe said...

I'm all over the place, and while I know I've seen the man, I didn't know his name.

_J_ said...

"Either way, that scene seems to knock out your underpinnings, no? Because the people don't cling to anything in that scene but themselves."

You can't honestly believe that the contrived "We won't blow up the other ferry" scene is somehow indicative of a noble live and let live nature of humanity which belies a fundamental appreciation for all people above preservation of the self.

It's just a stupid, contrived, bullshit, feel good "See, we're better than this" message based on nothing.

Read about the Milgram Experiment and the Stanford Prison Experiment and tell me that a ferryload of dipshits or a ferryload of criminals wouldn't blow the others to shit just to save themselves.

You have to appreciate movies for what they are. And if a movie is a defense of shoving one's head up one's own ass and clinging to life within the cave then OF COURSE they'll portray humanity as all the better for doing so.

Roscoe said...

I don't. But neither do I think that the scene works for your case, either.

This is what I mean about the movie being.. Conflicted.

You claim that Dark Knight is about people turning a blind eye to the truth, as defined by the Joker.

But what I'm pointing out is that the Joker is no more an emblem of the truth of anything than the ferry-folk are.

The Joker wants Gotham as HIS city. He's absolutely concerned with power, not in the form of Mob Control, but in the form of button pushing. He's the guy who knows how to goad you, how to manipulate you, how to turn you into his toy.

It's why he's so amused by the Batman. The Joker can goad him all over the place, but he can't quite predict him, either.

_J_ said...

"the elements that tie back to or reference/homage small moments in comics"

I don't really want to talk about this in the thread because I'd rather talk about what the post is about, but you brought this up and I was thinking about it.

After the movie you mentioned that "Joker falling down" was an homage to the first Batman. Simply stated I do not think it was an homage.

An homage is an homage because it is done for the sake of acknowledging something else. To identify an homage one does not have to identify similiarity. Rather, to identify an homage one has to identify intent.

So, yes, Joker falls from a high place in Tim Burton's Batman and Dark Knight. But that is not enough for it to be an homage.

Now for shit I want to talk about:

"his super-serial killer consciousness in acts so horrific they cannot be motivated by anything as logical as money or power."

I love that we've convinced ourselfs that killing people for monor or power is logical.

Also, too many people throw around the word "Nihilism" too casually.

Roscoe said...

it's not a homage.. it's a rejection.

the first joker dies from such a fall. This one is saved. When this one is much, much worse.

I'm noting it becuase it's a directorial choice that defines the characters. Yeah, there's that gleeful moment for me, just as the dogs recall the hyenas from TAS. But that specific moment is good becuase it says something, by allusion, about these characters, and this world.

Wait. You're drunk. Ourselfs. Monor? Is this the Warlord of Mona X, land of the Monads?

Both of the io9 reads have elements I agree with. And yet neither seems to pick up what I do from it, and what you read from it. That's what I find absolutely interesting.

_J_ said...

"This is what I mean about the movie being.. Conflicted."

I don't want to talk about the conflict in text because it's far too difficult to articulate the various manifestations of different kinds of conflict in the movie. There's the cinematic conflict, the plot conflict, the character conflict, the conflict within the story, etc. IF we start talking about "conflict" without specifying an exact context the conversation is just going to be stupid.

"The Joker wants Gotham as HIS city. He's absolutely concerned with power"

The Joker doesn't want to posess things. The Joker wants to do things and see what happens. The Joker is not concerned with power. It's more nuanced than that.

(This is one of those times when we used a word "power" which has a plethora of connotations and baggage, ignore that obvious problem, and keep using the word.)

What the Joker wants is to tear things down. That's the Joker-Batman relationship. It's not predictability and goading, it's not a cat with a mouse. It's about telling Batman "that one rule is what you'll have to break to know" and seeing what happens. It's knowing that Batman is on the bring, one rule away, and seeing what can be doing to tear away that one rule.

The Joker is primarily concerned with tearing down illusions until we're left with what is.

And I'm happy to argue that Joker's reaction atop the tower to the ferries was not a contextual reaction within the movie, but rather a fourth wall breaking moment of Joker's frustration that the writer didn't have the balls to portray the situation accurately and have both ferries blow one another to shit.

Which is why he had a backup plan and had to do it himself.

_J_ said...

"it's not a homage.. it's a rejection. the first joker dies from such a fall. This one is saved. When this one is much, much worse."

What I'm saying is that you've identified similiarty but you have not provided evidence of intent.

So you can say it is related to the first movie and use similarity as your evidence. But my point is that similiarity is not proof. Intent is proof.

As you said, the meaning comes from a recognition of the implications of the fall in the first movie against what happens in the second. The meaning comes from the intent at making an appeal to that similarity.

But, again, it's the intent that makes it meaningful, not the similarity.

So you need to find a quote from the director or writer stating that they intentionally replicated the scene, rather than just latching onto the obvious similiarity of "Joker falls down".

My counter-argument to whatever argument you make against this is that earlier in the movie Batman drops the crime boss from a height he knows won't kill him as a means of interrogation. So "Batman drops people" is an established character trait. Batman dropping Joker can exist within the movie independent of appeals to other movies given Batman's prediliction for dropping people in a manner which does not kill them.

Roscoe said...

Certainly.. I'm saying the message of the movie is Conflict, becuase it's message is conflicted..

but.. certainly.. it'd be a complex and muddy discussion.

As for the Joker, of COURSE he wants to possess things. He says it himself, as he lights the money and the Chinese Bookie up. Gotham is HIS city. It's not possession in the way Moroni or the rest of the old Gotham crime possesses the city, but it's absolutely possession. Gotham is HIS toybox, not anyone else's.

What you're entirely missing is What the Joker Says is Not What the Joker Wants. It's the Magic Trick all over again. He doesn't want to tear that rule away, he wants to see what Wayne will do to KEEP that rule. What henious acts will he allow to keep his rule intact? Batman is Gotham, and that means the Batman is the Joker's prized toy.

You're actually giving the Joker less credit than he's due, with the Ferries, as well. He has a backup plan, and it's going to be ugly, but it also is ENTIRELY distraction. He doesn't care what happens with them so much, as he does with seeing the city dance to his tune. He's annoyed that he couldn't push them, but nothing more than annoyed. He's not Hamil's raging Joker, who is quick to screw his own plans up when something displeases him.

You've bought into the cult of personality that Ledger's Joker exhibits, and in doing so, missed crucial points of his actions. The character is entirely performance.. I don't mean the actor, either. The character. A clown. A joke. It's all performance.

_J_ said...

"Gotham is HIS city."

It's not posession. It's acknowledging the cohesion and commonality. The city deserves a better class of criminal, and he's going to give it to them.

Because he is the one capable of providing Gotham with a criminal of Gotham stature. Gotham exists as a haven for super-criminals just as Gotham exists as a haven for Batman.

Gotham is Joker's city in the way that the drummer from foghat is my drummer. It's not posession of the guy from foghat. It's acknowledging that the guy from foghat is my personal ideal of what a drummer would be.

Gotham is the city of the Joker. Not posession. Suitability.

Roscoe said...

Nooo, it's very much posession.

The only reason Gotham is SUITABLE for the Joker, is becuase he SAYS it is.

Nolan wants us to believe that the Batman brings these things out, by his prescence. That's part of the point of the Sons of the Batman, and Scarecrow showing up again, and all of Alfred's lines.

But the Gotham you describe? Doesn't exist until the Joker does his thing. Prior to that, Gotham is a Mob Town. Think back to the Bank Manager asking if the clowns know who they're stealing from.

I'll grant you the Joker belives that Gotham can be the place he wants it to be. But that's becuase it's the place he controlls. Again, it's HIS toybox.

_J_ said...

"Again, it's HIS toybox."

I don't get that at all from the movie. We can argue that any glimps of posessions belies a fundamental desire to own and control. But I don't get that from his character.

I really think the Joker is primarily in Gotham because Gotham suits him. The mob is something to tear down. The police unit is something to tear down. Harvey Dent is something to tear down. BATMAN is something to tear down.

"Introduce a little anarchy... Upset the established order... Well then everyone loses their minds!"

Part of this conversation is absurd because it's a fictional character in a fictional city. So if we're asking "Why he's in gotham" the answer is "because the writer put him there".

But if we go into the story..

And, by the way, I'm just talking about Heath Ledger's Joker in scenes of Dark Knight included in the final cut. No other.

...if we go into the story? He's a simple guy. He likes dynomite, gunpowder, and gasoline. He's just a dog chasing cars. He's just tearing stuff down.

And, yes, each particular example he ever uses is crafted to suit the scene. His origin story changes. His stated motivation changes.

But if you look at what is common to all of it? He's tearing things down.

Roscoe said...

What you're missing is that a joke is meaningless if it's not told.

He's tearing things down because people put their faith in things being. Yes. We agree there. But the WHY?

That's different. You say becuase he's actually invested in the change. I say it's becuase it's part of an act, a bit more stage manipulation.

_J_ said...

"You say becuase he's actually invested in the change. I say it's becuase it's part of an act, a bit more stage manipulation."

He's not invested in the change. He's tearing things down which can be torn down. Since he's super sane he's not going to blow up mountains or cut down trees, that's not interesting. He's going to go after the fabricated illusion of normalcy maintained by society.

You keep saying it's an act and mentioning "stage".

Who is the audience? What is the act? What stage? What performance?

Roscoe said...

That's what I'm trying to pin down.

I can't tell if it's the joke that only he's in on, if it's the joke that is played upon the audience, in which case, everyone's the audience, or if.. reaching, but if we're taking Super-Sane as given, not out of bounds.. if the audience is The Audience of the Film.

You're suggesting that the Joker has a plan, a goal of some sort, a Higher Purpose to his actions, to teach the Gothamites something about themselves. And I reject that, because he clearly changes goals upon a whim.

Your case that he's not interested in money, or power, or what have you is undermined by the fact that he opens up with a bank robbery. That he presents himself to the Mob bosses as demanding half of their combined cash.

I know he later says he doesn't want the money, he's only burning HIS half. But I take that as evidence of the Joker simply changing his mind on a whim. We see him do it before, with the Batman must unmask, Oh, Hells, No, this is more fun series.

In order to be feasible, it seems that your Nieztchian Joker has to be both aware of himself and his message, and that he has to be involved in actively creating the change he wants.

And I don't see that. If you take the Joker's statments as text, you have to take with that the fact that his actions undermine those statements.

_J_ said...

"You're suggesting that the Joker has a plan, a goal of some sort, a Higher Purpose to his actions, to teach the Gothamites something about themselves."

Nope. He doesn't have a plan or a goal. He's not trying to teach anyone anything.

He's tearing things down.

I do not think there is any motivation beyond that. Once a person reaches that level of sanity and recognizes that it's all just an illusion of normalcy the destruction of that fabricated normalcy is an end in itself.

If he happens to find it entertaining along the way? So much the better.

He's just a dog chasing cars. Except replace "a dog" with "Truth" and "cars" with "Lies".

And that capitalization is intentional. He'll lie to people, but the lie is an attempt to undermine the Lie of society.

"undermined by the fact that he opens up with a bank robbery"

Dynomite, gunpowder, and gasonline are cheap. They aren't free. Money is just a means. And note the way he stole it from the bank. He didn't assemble a group for the sake of having a group. He assembled the group for the sake of tearing that group down.

_J_ said...

"In order to be feasible, it seems that your Nieztchian Joker has to be both aware of himself and his message, and that he has to be involved in actively creating the change he wants."

Not at all. He's just tearing things down.

_J_ said...

The other part that may have been missed is that he's not concerned with his personal well-being or self-preservation.

That's another part of his character which may not be intuitive to observers.

That's also part of the explanation to the "why". He's not trying to obtain power or money because those desires result from an appreciation of the self and a desire to maintain that self.

Super-Sane Joker people do not have that. They realize their own inevitable end, accept that, and act all the more freely as a result.

I included this in the OP, but it might have been to glancing to really catch on. And it's an important component to the whole idea.

_J_ said...


kylebrown said...

I don't know there were multiple occasions where Joker would cringe or shy away from confrontation with Batman, as if afraid of bodily harm.

_J_ said...

"multiple occasions where Joker would cringe or shy away from confrontation with Batman, as if afraid of bodily harm"


The interrogation scene was Joker talking despite whatever Batman did. The drivey scene had Joker standing in the middle of the road shouting "HIT ME!"

When did Joker take action to preserve himself?

Roscoe said...

I'm not certain he has a goal at all. Only whim and action, which he instantly justifies.

I don't know.. I've been discussing this with Alex as well.. and I'm shifting back and forth on alternate impressions of the Joker.

In some sense, he's a contradiction elemental. He regularly does one thing, then does something counterproductive to that action later in the film.

The money statment, after robbing a bank. Killing off his henchmen and actively recruiting new men from the mob. Focused on Batman and his unmasking vs. Focused on Dent and his fall.

This idea.. it seems to run counter to my earlier and still fairly held idea that it's all performance..

and yet.. it DOES provide plenty of fertile ground for contrasting understandings of the character. Because I'm not convinced the Joker acts according to a specific larger goal.

Not even just tearing things down. Becuase he's also building his own criminal cult-empire, in His Town.

You know how there are "high-functioning" autism sufferers? What if the best read on the Joker here is an insanely "high-functioning" schizophrenia sufferer. Totally redefining past present and future contexts on the immediate moment.

_J_ said...

"it DOES provide plenty of fertile ground for contrasting understandings of the character."

I think part of interpretation of the character comes from the viewer's desire and understanding. Galileo has to be crazy and incorrect because we don't want him to be correct. That sort of thing. And that taints the discussion.

And that gets into psychology of viewers and audience interpretation. And as much as I love the soft sciences I'm happy to just ignore it and fixate on saying true things. Which is the point at which I have to say that I'm not trying to psychoanalyze the Joker. I'm trying to see which philosophy best matches Ledger's Joker.

"What if the best read on the Joker here is an insanely "high-functioning" schizophrenia sufferer. Totally redefining past present and future contexts on the immediate moment."

That gets into word baggage.

I don't think Joker's understanding or interpretation of reality is skewed. I think Joker is consistent throughout.

So when he changes his story and modifies his apparent goals (unmask batman v. corrupting Dent) we have to ask, then, what is consistent?

Tearing Things Down.

Roscoe said...

I think part of interpretation of the character comes from the viewer's desire and understanding. Galileo has to be crazy and incorrect because we don't want him to be correct. That sort of thing. And that taints the discussion.

Isn't that kinda precisely what you're doing as well? Which is why I think it's a great Joker portrayal.

We're both saying the Joker is unfathomable, but we're assigning different motivations for making sense of his actions. My point is you're still looking to apply reason and sense to understanding the Joker. And that's wrong. Attempting to do that is what makes the Joker so dangerous, as a character, in story: People try to make sense of his actions, and there is none.

_J_ said...

I never said Joker was unfathomable. I said Joker is a fully sane individual who grasps his role within the universe and is acting in a manner which is fully sensible.

Roscoe said...

So the Joker is eminently understandable. To you or I. His actions make perfect sense to You or I.

If this is true, then how do you account for his conflicting actions?

They don't serve his goal of tearing things down. They don't reveal how he is aware of his role in the universe. So.. How do they fit? To wit, a Sane Man doesn't Steal Money from the Mob, Blackmail the Mob for more, and then decide he doesn't want money. A Goal Oriented Man doesn't kill off his underlings and then turn around and recruit new ones. And you can't really argue that these are part of his tearing down some sort of structure, because there's no one to witness it, to understand that any structure is being dismantled.

_J_ said...

There is no conflict.

"a Sane Man doesn't Steal Money from the Mob, Blackmail the Mob for more, and then decide he doesn't want money."

What is consistent within all three of those actions? He is going against common, accepted sense. He's going against the norm. He's tearing down established notions.

"A Goal Oriented Man doesn't kill off his underlings and then turn around and recruit new ones."
Get minions
Tear minions down
Get minions
Tear minions down

Minions are expendable. But more importantly? They are something else to destroy. But minions also have the ability to perform physical labor. So get them to do that as well, before tearing them down, replacing them, and then tearing down the replacements.

"because there's no one to witness it, to understand that any structure is being dismantled."

He's not doing it for an audience. He's just tearing things down.

Certain actions of his are meant to tear down the social structure and so they are more public. When he has the three mob guys fight with a pool cue to see which one can work for him? He's still tearing things down. He's tearing down two people as well as the values of the one who survives. And then eventually that person will be torn down.

Blow up a hospital? Tearing things down.
Have the city hunt someone? Tearing things down.
Push the driver out of a semi? Tearing things down.

It's all tearing things down.

Roscoe said...

So the Joker has to build up his own things to destroy? That's not someone who knows his place in the universe, it's OCD. You're looking for consistency in a man who is by his very nature, inconsistent.

What you call tearing things down?

I call that button pushing. Manipulating.

Take a look at the having the city hunt someone example. He changes his mind once he's proven he can push the general populace's buttons. The Batman hasn't unmasked, so His buttons haven't been pushed. The city becomes uninteresting. He hasn't torn them down so much as abandoned them to focus on the new shiny, changing his mind, and abandoning that "plot"

He's not tearing things down, he's seeing what he can push someone to do.

_J_ said...

Saw Dark Knight again last night.

1) I watched it for "scenes in which the Joker preserves himself or avoids bodily harm". I didn't see any.

2) That movie is cellphone-TASTIC. So much shit happens as a result of cellphones.

3) Why the fuck can't they say "Joker did it" at the end instead of Batman having to take responsiblity? How is that not stupid and contrived?

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