Wednesday, July 30, 2008

Zero Punctuation: E3 Trailer Park

36 comments:

_J_ said...

"Nintendo have proudly announced their intentions to make the Wii do what it was always supposed to do anyway."

I'm still waiting for letters of apology from every Nintendo Fanboy who said "the Wiimote workz!".

_J_ said...

Also, Spot On review of of the FFXIII trailer.

Roscoe said...

.. yeah.. it WAS spot on .

and.. Fuck that, no. the wiimote DID work. Know how I can prove it?

Boom Blox still selling at the rate it was on release.

You know what kills me? This whole argument is based upon expectations. You expceted the wiimote to live up to what you wanted.

What did Yahtzee just teach you?

yeah. douche. not even a douche nozzle.. beucase I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of a "The ... Nozzle" reference.

Roscoe said...

Also, I want to be stonking great.

or at least.. have those stonking greatnesss.

_J_ said...

"You expceted the wiimote to live up to what you wanted."

I expected the Wiimote to be what the WiiMotion Plus is. Because that's what they said it did.

What's crazy is that at the time we didn't have any rubric for assessing that sort of control. So, in a sense, they weren't lying since they weren't establishing a strict claim of performance.

Which is great and all. But I've played with a Wiimote, and you've played with a Wiimote, and the damn thing doesn't fucking work to the degree that the WiiMotion Plus, presumably, works.

_J_ said...

I liked the "Clap clap Oi!" part.

_J_ said...

Wii MotionPlus demonstration

I'm still stuck on your "This whole argument is based upon expectations." point. Yes, that is true, but I do not think it is necessarily indicative of a flawed argument.

Expectations are all we had with the Wii. You saw the Wii commercials and the manner in which content was presented. The entire marketing strategy for the Wii was misdirection, of vaguely wording the explanation of the device to craft an image. Nintendo showed a person swinging a sword, then cut to a shot of Link swinging a sword, and never expressly say this will happen but intimate the fuck out of the point that this will happen.

You know how toy commercials will hype the hell out of a product? How batman toys always have the batmobile crashing through a wall of colored plastic bricks and there are these elaborate platforms off of which the joker action figure falls?

You know how those "Last Airbender" toy commercials combine shots of the toys with shots from the show?

You know how beer commercials have hot, sexy ladies in swimsuits jumping around people who open a beer?

That's what Nintendo did with the Wii.

The difference is that the Wii was something new. It's not like an action figure or a beer where we understand what the thing is and can discern the product seperate from the hype. All we had pre-Wii was the hype, the composite shots of Link swinging his sword and a person swinging the Wiimote.

The presentation, the image, the intimation? Was that the Wiimote gave a 1:1 replication of movement. It's, of course, not what Nintendo explicitly said but rather is what Nintendo intimated.

And that's my point. Of course Nintendo never explicitly said "The Wii will give a 1:1 replication of movement from Wiimote to gameplay." They just showed someone swinging the Wiimote and Link swinging his sword. They presented a false impression.

And even ignoring all of that? It's still not the fucking case that when one swings the wiimote Link will swing his fucking sword.

Roscoe said...

You're laying heaps of shit on Nintendo for ADVERTISING now?

Because.. here's the thing. You admit that no one ever said anything about 1:1 replication. You claim that they intimated it, though.

And yet, your proof? Is one hundred percent an example of the Wii working exactly as it does currently.

You swing the 'mote and Link swings the sword. Do you NEED to swing that hard? Nope. Do your actions match up with what's on screen? Not usually, but you can match animations if you want.

You're blaming Nintendo, the company, for non-Nintendo sponsored hype, i.e. wild fanboy speculation.
Then, when you became disappointed it never delivered upon the fanbuzz promise you bought into, you started taring anyone who examined the situation sensibly, and didn't try to hold the company responsible for fanwank as Fanboys, claiming they were blindly ignoring the "problems" with the 'Mote.

Something Ironic about that, no? The folks who assessed the product on the claims of the company and not rampant speculation are Fanboys?

Let's be honest, the speculation going into the launch of the Wii was absurdly high. It was a pretty respected name going all out with something nobody thought could/would/or should work. But they kept going forward, and sold people on the idea of what could be done. Everyone latched onto that, and from there, the speculation took on new life.

_J_ said...

The speculation resulted from the ambiguity of Nintendo's claims for what the Wiimote would do.

Go find a detailed description of the Wiimote / Wii interraction from before the Wii's release. There really aren't any. There are reviews and reports from E3, which if I remember correctly is where the game was first demoed to a large audience, but those reviews take on the whole "when you throw the ball the ball goes down the lane" sort of articulation.

Which is neither accurate nor precise to the degree that accurate and precise can exist now that we have means of comparison.

That's my point. The Wii did something new and so it was nigh-impossible to define what that thing was due to the inability to compare it with something else. So the speculation was not technically "speculation" so much as it was an articulation of the concept without a context of comparison.

It's not the case that "a bunch of fanboys said it was 1:1 replication of movement". The problem was that without something to compare it to we were left with a description of the thing itself, and that is going to be a generic explanation of replication of movement.

But that explanation had no real context of accuracy given that it was the first controller to do that sort of thing.

With the Motion Plus we can talk about how it compares to the Wiimote. Before the Motion Plus? It was far more difficult to articulate what the wiimote did.

It's sort of like having to describe "bitter" without being able to appeal to lemons and limes and grapefruit and sourpatch kids. If one had to define "bitter" with only a context of "Grapefruit" the definition will be difficult to communicate given the limited sampling. But if one could compare a grapefruit to a lemon or a lime then that comparison can allow for a better communication of the particulars of the thing.

Since the Wiimote was the "first" thing to do what it does Greg #5's hype of "it replicates your movement!" could be taken to mean that 1:1 replication. The problem is that the Greg #5's of the world didn't know that they didn't mean that. They had just tasted grapefruit and declared it "bitter" without having any context from which to discern what "bitter" meant.

_J_ said...

And really I don't even care that the Wii was initially hyped to be something I was not. I'm mostly concerned that the Wii's initial praise has not been retracted due to the announcement of the Motion Plus.

We hate it when a game is released half-finished, when patches are required to make the game what it was initially promised to be. Except when Nintendo does that with the Wiimote, when Nintendo releases a hardware patch that users will have to buy? No one says a fucking thing.

kylebrown said...

That is because they didn't release the console half finished it works fine. There have been many good games released for it, in it's current state. People enjoy it.

Nintendo is simply releasing an improvement. Think expansion. Was Diablo II a bad game because LOD had not yet been released? Of course not.

There is no need to retract initial praise of the Wii because it is living up to expectations. This isn't a patch. It doesn't fix old games that didn't work before it. It is an improvement for future games.

Roscoe said...

Bitter is not sour, and now?

We are no longer on speaking terms.

Seriously. I can't take a man who confuses two of the four basic taste receptors seriously.

The follow up comment is the thing, though. You claim the system was released unfinished.. and that is entirely built upon your speculation and expectations. The system has sold, continues to sell, will continue to sell like gangbusters. Broken, unfinished product doesn't do that.

I think you're jumping the gun on the obligatory hardware patch thing, too. One thing Nintendo is DAMNED good at doing is not making any of their gear obligatory.

kylebrown said...

I wouldn't be surprised if they do release games that require the add on. Even then, that isn't a problem. It is no different than needing a gun for duck hunt, or a guitar for guitar hero, though. If you don't want to buy the peripherals for hte game, don't buy the game. Nintendo is releasing plenty of games and will continue to do so that don't require it.

_J_ said...

"I wouldn't be surprised if they do release games that require the add on.

My understanding is that the Wii MotionPlus will be sold in a bundle "Wii Sports Resort" as well as sold seperately. I do not know if it is "backwards compatible" with other games.

"The system has sold, continues to sell, will continue to sell like gangbusters. Broken, unfinished product doesn't do that."

I think we both know that is not true.

"That is because they didn't release the console half finished it works fine."

"Functions" and "actualizes a design concept" are two different things.

Think back to before the Wii was released. What was its primary selling point? It wasn't better storage. It wasn't better graphics. It wasn't increased power. The Wii was about a new way to play games the Wii was about motion sensitivity. Instead of pressing A one waggled a stick. That's what the Wii was primarily fixated upon.

"Satoru Iwata stated that the Wii MotionPlus was conceived soon after the completion of the initial Wii Remote design, to address developer demand for more capable motion sensing"

That's my point. The Wiimote functions within the restricted context of what "functions" means with regard to the Wiimote. But developers wanted a device which functioned better, which could detect movement in a far more precisely. Players wanted a device which functioned better. So, Nintendo developed the MotionPlus.

Yes, the MotionPlus is an improvement. But the thing which it improves is that core concept the Wii was marketed to be: A different way to play games.

I guess we could argue that the Wii was the end goal Nintendo always envisioned, that they had no plans of improving the product or providing a more accurate Wiimote. But I do not think that is the case.

I think they made the Wiimote function as well as it needed to function at the time. I think it was accurate enough to compel people to buy consoles. Then once it sold? When developers recognized its shoddy nature, when players bitched, when their consumer base demanded more? They made a better Wiimote.

I don't think we can compare the Motion Plus to LOD. The Motion Plus is different than an expansion or more content. The Motion Plus is a step forward and an improvement upon Nintendo's promise of "a new way to play games".

If we want to compare it to something? It's a technological advance similar to video card advancements, storage advancements, hybrid car advancements. That sort of thing. It's a step forward in technological progress.

kylebrown said...

Which part isn't true? The Wii is obviously still selling, so that is true.

As of June 30th:

"Sales of the Wii, equipped with a motion-sensing controller that can be swung like a bat, rose 51% and outsold the PlayStation 3 by more than three to one. Nintendo forecast sales of its console will rise 34% this year, placing the company on course to pass Sony as the world's largest maker of game players for the first time in at least 13 years.


What broken, unfinished products can you name that dominate a preexisting market and continue to dominate almost 2 years into their lifecycles?

kylebrown said...

june = july. sorry

_J_ said...

"When developers recognized its shoddy nature"

"Shoddy" in the sense that Alexander Graham Bell's telephone is shoddy when compared to, say, a 3G iPhone.

Imagine that Sony released a graphic card update for the PS3. Or, hell, imagine that Sony released a new PS3. Wouldn't we make fun of it? Wouldn't we question why initial versions of the product did not include those modifications made in later releases?

Sony releases four or five PS3s and we chuckle to ourselves at how disorganized they are. Nintendo releases a new Wiimote and...it's considered reasonable technological progression.

Sony releases a new PSP and we mock it. Nintendo releases a new DS and we buy it. The rumor is that Nintendo is going to announce another new DS sometime soon. Forecast? We'll all jizz ourselves stupid over it.

Isn't that inconsistent? To mock technological modification to the PS3 but just accept the MotionPlus?

_J_ said...

"What broken, unfinished products can you name that dominate a preexisting market and continue to dominate almost 2 years into their lifecycles?"

My point was that "people buy it" is not an indication of the excellence of a thing. People still play Star Wars Galaxies and Everquest. People watch American Idol. People eat at McDonald's.

Roscoe's point was:
"The system has sold, continues to sell, will continue to sell like gangbusters. Broken, unfinished product doesn't do that."

My point is "people buy it" indicates only that "people buy it". Roscoe was equating "sales" to "product excellence", implicitly arguing that people buy it, people do not buy broken, unifinished things, ergo...

And I wasn't granting the premise of that relation.

kylebrown said...

Ros wasn't equating sales to product excellence. He was using sales to prove that the Wii wasn't unfinished or broken at release, which was your point.

"And really I don't even care that the Wii was initially hyped to be something I was not. I'm mostly concerned that the Wii's initial praise has not been retracted due to the announcement of the Motion Plus.

We hate it when a game is released half-finished, when patches are required to make the game what it was initially promised to be. Except when Nintendo does that with the Wiimote, when Nintendo releases a hardware patch that users will have to buy? No one says a fucking thing."


Are you telling me I have misread this post?

'"The system has sold, continues to sell, will continue to sell like gangbusters. Broken, unfinished product doesn't do that."

I think we both know that is not true.'


or this reply. Ros never once mentioned during this line of reasoning that the wii was an excelling product, he was merely refuting your declaration that the Wii was somehow incomplete on release.

The difference between Nintendo's releases and Sony's?

Nintendo creates new versions that only improve upon the old model. Sony creates a new version that drops functionality to "improve" new models. I never once questioned the improvements absence from the original model, I question whether the improvements are really improvements. You were the only one mocking Sony for the slim PSP. I only mocked their ad campaign. I actually ended up buying a slim PSP.

I think your argument that we don't Nintendo the same as we treat Sony has any merit. We treat them differently because they act differently.

_J_ said...

"Ros wasn't equating sales to product excellence. He was using sales to prove that the Wii wasn't unfinished or broken at release, which was your point."

And I'm saying sales only prove that a thing was purchased. Sales do not indicate excellence. Sales do not indicate "not unfinished" or "not broken".

At best we can say that if a person buys a thing and that thing is not returned then, ignoring apathy on the part of the consumer, the thing performs in a manner which meets that person's expectations or does not create a situation of intolerance which prompts a return.

I'm going to lean more on the "not creating a situation of intolerance" one. Sort of like if one goes to see a movie and the movie sucks but one does not demand a refund on their ticket. Not asking for a refund does not mean that the movie was awesome. It just means that it did not prompt a person to demand their money back.

Saying "people buy the Wii and do not return it" indicates only that "people buy the Wii and do not return it".

Roscoe said...

If sales don't indicate that, eempirically, then what, pray tell, does?

Make your case with facts, so you can guide us all to wherever the hell you're coming from. It's not just supposition, is it?

kylebrown said...

Then please give me an example of something that dominated it's already existing market that was unfinished or broken, to disprove this theory of ours.

We will call it the Brown Theorom in hopes of becoming famous.

kylebrown said...

meant to say dominated for more than a year.

Roscoe said...

This may well be the exact example of what I was talking about, by the way.

You're holding HARD to a position that is unsupported, and in doing so, snidely inferring that anyone who disagrees with that position is inferior.

Yet, when someone tries to challenge it, tries to say, "Wait, No, you've not done your math correctly here", you dismiss them, and say "That's not what's being discussed"

Maybe, the problem here, is that you're assuming agreement from the start? Either obejctively, or tacitly? Whenever Sony puts out a new wibble WE react, whenever Nintendo puts out a new wobble WE react.

Except that Kyle has gone out of his way to tell you, no, that's not how he reacted...


hmn?

_J_ said...

"Then please give me an example of something that dominated it's already existing market that was unfinished or broken, to disprove this theory of ours."

Non-flat screen Televisions.

In the sense that televisions remains yet to be "finished" given that it continually progresses forward towards our idea of what it ought to be.

"If sales don't indicate that, eempirically, then what, pray tell, does?"
That's going to be one for after lunch. The short answer is that people not watching Sports Night does not indicate that Sports Night sucks; people not reading Starman does not indicate that Starman sucks.

So take that idea and run it out.

zomg lunch time.

kylebrown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Roscoe said...

So finished is an unattainable Platonic Existence?

Finished as Dreaming the Impossible Dream?

if so, how can you ever excoriate anything for being unfinished?

Roscoe said...

Also.. Starman sold. Sold beyond Transmet numbers. Getting a two book hardcover collection now.

So.. you know.. bit of misfiring example.

either way, though. That argument leads you to assuming progress is the only thing that can be measured as success, and as soon as something more progressive has come out, everything previous to it is now "Incomplete".. which is asinine, and you obviously know it, as it's the exact case you use to rail at Sony's PS3 model shell-game.

kylebrown said...

"That's going to be one for after lunch. The short answer is that people not watching Sports Night does not indicate that Sports Night sucks; people not reading Starman does not indicate that Starman sucks."

Come on J, you are so much better than that!

The negation of the inverse has no bearing on the truth value of the implication.

kylebrown said...

Non flat-screen TV's are not incomplete though. They have worked the entirety of their life cycle. Does this mean the NES was incomplete because it wasn't the SNES?

Of course not. You may be able to make a case that analog televisions will be obsolete soon without a patch, but I contend that the ones that dominated their markets came with an expected life cycle, and worked perfectly throughout that expected life cycle, until replace with Digital televisions, which began to dominate the market soon after.

_J_ said...

Was thinking about this at lunch.

When the DS came out I was upset that it did not live up to the full potential of what a handheld could do.

When the PSP came out I was happy that it did so much, but was upset at the execution.

When the iPhone was released I was pissed off that it did not have 3G.

When the Wii was released I was pissed off that it was not the Motion Plus.

So there seems to be this trend of observing reality, seeing what is possible, and then being irritated when the things produced are not actualitions of that possibility.

Kind of like how I'm still pissed that cars don't get 60+ miles to the gallon or that they didn't make a black Wrath of God before a few sets ago.

So I'm saying Nintendo ought to have made the first version of the Wii the Motion Plus. Others are saying that the Wiimote was fine and the Motion Plus will be finer.

I dunno.

Roscoe said...

No.. you're saying what YOU expected should be what EVERYONE expected.

You get that, right?

Roscoe said...

You're lambasting everyone else for not holding close to realities' inability to meet your platonic expectaltions.

And then you're unloading the excess frustration and rage at things not meeting those expectations on others who don't feel the same way.

_J_ said...

"No.. you're saying what YOU expected should be what EVERYONE expected."

I'm trying to figure out of "expect" is the correct word.

When I read about the Wiimote I thought of what it could be. When I tried the demo Wiimote in that Gamestop I saw what it was. What it was is not what it could have been.

Which can lead to the cupcake problem. And i'm happy to accept that at the time I was making a cupcake argument.

But when they announced the MotionPlus? That acknowledged my criticism. When Apple released the 3G iphone? They acknowledged the criticism.

I don't think that is "expect".

_J_ said...

"And then you're unloading the excess frustration and rage at things not meeting those expectations on others who don't feel the same way."

I think I'm looking at the WiiMotion Plus, comparing it to what I said the Wii ought to have done, and saying SEE?!

Sort of like when they announced the 3G iPhone I said "SEE!?"

Part of it is "I called it". But what I called was that better versions of product X would be better while other people were happy with product X.

Which is not to say that people do not want the Motion Plus. But that they were happy with the Wiimote.

Which is fine. But then Nintendo made the Motion Plus.

Which makes me go "SEE?!"

Roscoe said...

the problem here is egocentric.

They didn't address YOUR criticism, so much as they put out an improved product.

did that product ADDRESS the things you criticised? Perhaps. Were those things improved to address YOUR criticisms? Not as much so.

And then you go "SEE?!interrobang" while pointing and puffing out your chest, saying "I called it!" and at the same time, intimating that everything you said about it was right. Which includes calling Kyle and I and whoever fanboys, leaping to the defense of Nintendo. Which is where someone stands up and says.. "Uhm.. No... again, that's not what we were saying?"

It's that you, either because you were in the moment, or becuase you don't want to, conveinently forget all the things you said about the issue, in the attempt to sell/vent your point. Or.. rather.. the point you were jousting at, and not the forest of points you attached to it, in order to sell your argument. i.e. The Wiimote could be better. Not, The Wiimote is broken, nor the Wiimote is liked for novelty, nor, fanboys refuse to hear complaints, nor... etc. etc. etc.