Everyone Is a Sith: Dark Matter

Tuesday, October 30, 2007

Dark Matter

Man, we need a place to talk about Dark Matter.

28 comments:

_J_ said...: Cause it doesn't exist.

I don't think the lady quoted at the end sounds skeptical at all:

"As far as we're concerned, [Moffat] hasn't done anything that makes us retract our earlier statement that the Bullet Cluster shows us that we have to have dark matter," Clowe said. "We're still open to modifying gravity to reduce the amount of dark matter, but we're pretty sure that you have to have most of the mass of the universe still in some form of dark matter."

They've found their answer, "Dark matter" and hell if they'll accept the possibility that it isn't Dark Matter.; October 30, 2007 at 12:31 PM
Kylebrown said...: Do you have a different definition of skepticism than I do? As far I know it means to have doubt, or to not believe.

Sounds to me like the man at the end of the article, Douglas Clowe doesn't believe the modified gravity theory.

Given he does have some stock in the dark matter theory, because some of his accomplishments directly relate to its existence.

So stubborn could very well be the word for it. But he is a skeptic none the less.; October 30, 2007 at 12:39 PM
_J_ said...: Regarding the name: How about we call it "uncomfirmed hypothetical substance akin to Luminiferous aether"?

Skeptical about the research that shows that Dark Matter may not exist, yes. Skeptical about claims which view Dark Matter as necessary? Not so much.

The objective is to describe reality accurately. One option is "Dark Matter" and the other is "Gravity doesn't work the way we think it does." Rather than posit the existence of some unsubstantiated thing (see: God), I prefer to think that we were wrong about how Gravity works.

Because usually when positing the existence of some unsubstantiated thing within the history of humanity it often is the case that we were simply mistaken in the first place.; October 30, 2007 at 12:45 PM
Caleb said...: That's a name I can stand behind.; October 30, 2007 at 1:16 PM
Kylebrown said...: I'm not arguing for the existence of nor the denial of dark matter.

The point I am trying to get across is that you shouldn't criticize the scientific method mid process. All they can do is gather information, study it, theorize about it, and then run tests on their theory. Rinse and repeat.

It is most likely the case that our formula for gravity is wrong. I will be honest and state that I don't know enough about the subject at hand to make an argument either way.; October 30, 2007 at 4:22 PM
Kylebrown said...: Was Gregor Mendel wrong about trait inheritance? He didn't realize DNA existed, but he was able to look at the information in front of him and theorize that traits are passed from parent to child, and knew that the code existed within the zygote.

Was Democritus wrong about the existence of atoms? He was most definitely incapable of seeing them but he was sure that certain phenomena could be explained only by the existence of a smallest building block.

Dark matter isn't unsubstantiated, it is a theory to explain the non trivial differences between our current gravity formulas and the behaviors we see in the known universe.; October 30, 2007 at 4:40 PM
Caleb said...: The issue I have is with headlines and proclamations.; October 31, 2007 at 9:23 AM
_J_ said...: I'd like to know why Dark Matter is deemed a better explanation than "Gravity works differently in other places".

I'd also like to know how anyone can seriously talk about things which happened 3 billion light years away.

And as an aside, isn't "3 billion light years away" a measure of both distance and time? If today we see an explosion which is 3 billion light years away doesn't that mean the explosion happened 3 billion years ago if it is the case that we see it as a result of the light of the explosion contacting our retinas?; October 31, 2007 at 11:44 AM
Kylebrown said...: Yes, 3 billions light years = the distance light would travel in 3 billions years = Anything light you see 3 billion light years away originated 3 billion years ago.

I'm not doubting that our understanding of gravity is incorrect. By the same token, thought, it would mean that our understanding of gravity isn't just wrong, it is fundamentally wrong. This is still possible though.

Is it not also possible, though, that there is some form of extra dense matter out there that we are incapable of seeing from such a long distance, that is helping hold the universe together?

Both theories have their merits. I, unfortunately, only have an amateurish understanding of physics and astronomy, and can make no outright claim either way, nor would I be willing to stand behind either theory without further analysis.; October 31, 2007 at 11:59 AM
Caleb said...: That's basically true. Just be careful how you say what you're saying otherwise someone will not understand that you understand what you are saying.; October 31, 2007 at 11:59 AM
Caleb said...: So, you're saying there might be someting that surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together.?; October 31, 2007 at 12:03 PM
Kylebrown said...: The third part is possibly true. It possibly exists at the center of not just our galaxy but clusters of galaxies. It does not surround nor penetrate us.

Our gravity formulas are sound for phenomena within our solar system. Where it fails, is outside of our solar system when dealing with much larger heavenly bodies. Dark matter at the center of the universe attempts to solve these issues.; October 31, 2007 at 12:33 PM
Kylebrown said...: Strike that. At the center of galaxies, not the universe, was my intention.; October 31, 2007 at 12:34 PM
Caleb said...: So, if there's a bright center to the universe, Dark Matter is the planet that is farthest from?; October 31, 2007 at 12:40 PM
_J_ said...: I think that "gravity works differently in different places" is just as kookie as "there exists an ultra-dense matter which does not reflect light".

I remember from a Eurasia lecture that someone said that Einstein said that gravity might work differently in different areas of space, but I could be wrong since it was a Eurasia lecture.

I do remember that during the lecture on retrograde motion I thought that they were describing how the solar system worked, until the end when they said "and of course this theory is lunacy, which is why it was refuted..."

And that made me very sad, because I thought deferents and epicycles were hella cool.; October 31, 2007 at 12:45 PM
_J_ said...: Man, Eurasia was awesome. I passed that class entirely because I watched:

1) The Magic School Bus
2) Wishbone; October 31, 2007 at 12:47 PM
_J_ said...: "So, if there's a bright center to the universe, Dark Matter is the planet that is farthest from?"

I could hug you.; October 31, 2007 at 12:48 PM
Kylebrown said...: "So, if there's a bright center to the universe, Dark Matter is the planet that is farthest from?"

I don't understand what this metaphor is trying to say. Dark Matter wouldn't be the farthest thing from anything. It would act more like hte sun in our solar system, at the center for which smaller (in terms of mass) bodies would revolve around. Not some bright center of the universe if a center of the universe exists...; October 31, 2007 at 1:18 PM
_J_ said...: It's a Star Wars quote from when Luke is cleaning the droids.

"If there's a bright center to the universe you're on the planet that it's farthest from."; October 31, 2007 at 1:23 PM
Kylebrown said...: ah; October 31, 2007 at 1:33 PM
Roscoe said...: Kyle, buddy, seriously, you've walked into the mother of all traps.

If you can't juice up some Gamma radiation, then your best bet is to Banner on out, to sad music.

Because it's going to take some classic 80's throwin' to get through to these two.

They've found their nit, and by God it shall be the most thoroughly picked that ever a nit should be. They're on... their.. fourth? Fifth year of picking? And they've evolved the discussion to a point where things need not be mentioned, but simply taken as grounds. You've stumbled into that.

Get your backpack, your ball cap, and cue up the music. Walk away, sad, looking back, and hitch on to the next episode, David Bruce Banner.; October 31, 2007 at 2:46 PM
_J_ said...: Sometimes I think that the way I write is obscure and convoluted.

Then I read a Roscoe post.; October 31, 2007 at 3:19 PM
Roscoe said...: Man, you know everything you need to in order to decipher that post.

I make no apologies.; October 31, 2007 at 6:35 PM
_J_ said...: I make all apologies.; November 1, 2007 at 9:35 AM
Caleb said...: Darth Matter?; November 1, 2007 at 9:58 AM
Caleb said...: Also.; November 1, 2007 at 10:00 AM
_J_ said...: I agree. It is.; November 1, 2007 at 10:00 AM
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Everyone Is a Sith

Tuesday, October 30, 2007

Dark Matter

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