Everyone Is a Sith: I hate Zelda, too.

Wednesday, November 7, 2007

I hate Zelda, too.

23 comments:

MA17 said...: I like how he ends with an Okami joke, especially since I just started playing that game again.

BTW, remember those flying peach things that we were trying to get to, but figured we couldn't actually reach without a hookshot? I totally got a brush technique that lets you draw a line from the peaches (actually closed lotus blossoms) to the wolf, and then a vine appears and snaps you up to the open blossom. In other words I got the hookshot.; November 8, 2007 at 7:42 AM
_J_ said...: Okami is Zelda.

I'm glad we made the joke before Zero Punctuation made the joke.; November 8, 2007 at 9:22 AM
Roscoe said...: Everyone made the joke..

but it's a damned fine game.; November 8, 2007 at 12:45 PM
_J_ said...: Which game? Dog Zelda?; November 8, 2007 at 1:12 PM
Lady Enide said...: This critique is entertaining, but at least somewhat unsupported when you realize that Zelda games fall into two categories: periodical rip-offs (which may or may not hold worth, depending on how classy the remake is) and conscientious reinvention. WW, PHG, and many of the older games do just rehash the exact same plot structure and characters at a different point in the legendary-but-ambiguous timeline. Others, however, such as Majora's Mask and even Twilight Princess to some extent, do indeed twist the primary objective around significantly and introduce truly original additions to the gameplay, quest structure, and overall history of the world(s). Hence my love Zelda for good reason.; November 8, 2007 at 2:31 PM
_J_ said...: Despite the aesthetic changes and alterations to the gameplay (sometimes you get to sail a boat. Sometimes you ride a horse.) it's still the same characters with the nigh-same weapons doing the nigh-same things. Has there been a Zelda game in which one did not use a boomerang?

And that's the argument. It's like how pokémon games always start with the player choosing a water, fire, or plant pokémon (except Yellow Pikachu addition, but that doesn't count) and then going to the first gym, which is always only ever a rock gym.

Yes, there are minor alterations to the formula, but it's still the same formula. And, yes, people will still buy the game and they will stay loyal to the franchise, but do they really need to keep releasing Zelda games?

Arguably, yes, they do. Okami is Zelda, but not as many people bought it because nowhere in the title does it say "Zelda". The name is what sells the Zelda games.

I like formula, but i'm happy to rip on a franchise when the opportunity presents itself.; November 8, 2007 at 3:17 PM
MA17 said...: I think it's worth noting that Zero Punctuation has its own formula which produces predictable outcomes. The idea is that reviews will be generally negative and the game will be mocked on some level, and for the most part that holds true, though there are some exceptions.

That aside, I agree with LE that some Zelda games are ripoffs, while others are not, and maybe this is just going down an unnecessary road, but I thought TP was the most egregious rip-off to date. I thought Link to the Past took the sort of rough-sketch of an idea that the original Zelda had and turned it into something more substantial. It provided a more clearly structured game flow, a more verbose plot, more and different things to do within the world, while still being essentially about a boy who traverses x dungeons while collecting keys of various types and potency in order to rescue a princess. Ocarina of Time is, I think, basically a 3D version of LttP, but with some more additions to the new formula LttP had set down. The story's details are changed and the experience becomes more cinematic, for example. Then there were a few fine Zelda games after that (which are beyond the scope of what I'm trying to say, so I'll not say more about them), and then TP, which is in some ways more like LttP than even OoT (the dark world is actually a dark world, not just a grim future, Link turns into an animal when he's in the dark world) And I sort of disagree with Jay's argument about repeated game elements, because I think that to some extent it's necessary to repeat things. Unless the developers feel it's not necessary to allow ranged attacks, Link is going to carry a bow since it's a setting-appropriate ranged weapon, for example.

---I have to leave for home, and I didn't want to lose what I'd written, nor do I have the time to finish it. Please quote the above out of context and make me look like an idiot as you please.; November 8, 2007 at 4:53 PM
_J_ said...: "And I sort of disagree with Jay's argument about repeated game elements, because I think that to some extent it's necessary to repeat things."

I'll admit that I'm wrong.

Reading through this, though, makes the repetition all the more obvious. And if a character has been around since 1986 and has fundamentally done the same thing repeatedly (find keys, throw a boomerang, solve puzzles)...

The thing I come back to in my head is that they've been re-inventing the wheel since 1986. Constantly asking "what if we did this..." and tweaking the established formula. And just like real wheels sometimes these tweaks lead to improvements and sometimes they suck ass.

It's not terrible. It's not bad for business. And if the game has lasted for 21 years it can't be terrible for the franchise.

It's just something.; November 8, 2007 at 6:03 PM
MA17 said...: 1) To finish up what I was saying about TP: I thought about my position and realized that TP actually is a lot more "innovative" than I had thought, and the problems I thought it had weren't actually problems. My main complaint was that the series staples (Zelda, Ganon, Triforce) were virtually absent from the entire game, and that everything else was so similar to LttP and OoT that there was almost nothing of value left, but now I realize that they had let the villain and the princess fall to the background because they were focusing more on another villain and another princess, and I have to give them a little credit for that.

2) The thing I come back to in my head is that they've been re-inventing the wheel since 1986. Constantly asking "what if we did this..." and tweaking the established formula. And just like real wheels sometimes these tweaks lead to improvements and sometimes they suck ass.

It is pretty impressive (and crazy), and I think you're getting at what I was going to try to get at, which is that a series shouldn't necessarily be faulted for its reusing of familiar elements so long as there are novel ones, too.

I still didn't care too much for Twilight Princess, however. The novelties were not the kind that I like, so I wound up spending too much time thinking about all the things I had already done instead of being entertained by the ones I hadn't.; November 8, 2007 at 7:39 PM
Roscoe said...: You're all arguing over an empty bone, folks.

Zelda games sell on the name, sure.. but becuase that name has stands for a certain level of excellence with the classic Zelda type game.

There have been PLENTY of Zelda games , both in the rip-off sense and in the Metroid-vania genre sense. I mean, I can name two for the NES alone.

If anything, Yahtzee's big issue with the game was repetitive game design choices, not the repetition of themes. Yeah, he rails on that a fair bit, but it's all in service of making the usual "INNOVATE" comment that he makes in the Psychonauts one. It's not a comment on the game, but a comment on the industry.

It's probably worth it to note that a significant minority of the "Great Games No One Played" genre are innovative Zelda Clones with miserable marketing behind them.; November 8, 2007 at 8:57 PM
Lady Enide said...: I think MA17 ended up getting my point in the end, which is cool, because now I don't have to try and explain myself.

I would agree with J mostly, I think, if I could rephrase what he said as, "predictable gameplay+new settings/situations in which to apply it=acceptable fun times, but predictable gameplay+same fundamental characters/situations=lame." I like TP because Midna is so *not* Zelda in so many ways (even when she sort of is), because the sidequests and NPCs are expansive, fresh, and involved often without being deeply integral, because a good chunk of the action/development happens *outside of dungeons*, because many of the dungeons themselves are only distantly related to earlier versions (what, abominable snowmen?? bone prison?? the temple of time itself as a dungeon?!). And the gameplay itself digresses in so many small-but-cumulatively-huge ways--as in, what, no magic meter?!

Ahem. I got excited. Anyhow, and as for MM, it is probably the most distant from the original plot of all of these, and I'm sticking to my guns for that without bothering to go into detail--should be self-evident.

Also, Roscoe's right, and I've never heard of this Okami. Explanation for the poor unenlightened one?; November 8, 2007 at 9:37 PM
MA17 said...: Okami (n) - Zelda clone in which the player takes on the role of a wolf who is the corporeal incarnation of the sun goddess Amaterasu, and journeys through mythological Japan purifying corrupted areas (reversing the spread of the dark world, in other words) by way of various magical paintbrush techniques. These techniques are applied by first pressing a button to take what amounts to a screenshot which can then be painted on via brush controlled by an analog stick. Drawing a slash on an enemy will damage him, on a tree it will cut it down, drawing a circle in the sky will cause the sun to appear, a circle around the top of a dead tree will revitalize it, that sort of thing. Familiar to Zelda players might be the drawing of a bomb to place a bomb, or the drawing of a vine to act as the hookshot.

Not everything is accomplished using the brush, however. There is more traditional, button-mashing combat, some pushing stuff around, and some plain old running around aimlessly.; November 8, 2007 at 10:49 PM
MA17 said...: Zelda Clones with miserable marketing behind them.

I love that there's a game fitting that description called Hype.; November 8, 2007 at 10:54 PM
Lady Enide said...: Oh, Hype... the little boy I used to tutor plays that and would tell me all about it.; November 8, 2007 at 11:55 PM
_J_ said...: I think I heart Hype because of what it is.

I don't think anyone can argue that it is detrimental to release Zelda games for each new platform. It works. They keep the system with Mario games, Zelda games, metroid games, etc.

I would say that they've found a system that works and they just keep doing it...but arguably all the consoles do that. They may not be as specific as Nintendo but they still follow the pattern of releasing consoles and then games are developed which fit a genre (fps, rpg, racing, puzzle, gay).

But it does take that whole "I've bought the gameboy 4 times" thinking to a whole new level. If a person only ever bought nintendo consoles and Zelda games they are arguably repeating history every few years. The graphics are upgraded, the hardware is enhanced, but it's still the same thing over and over again.

That's a bit depressing, yet entirely consistent with reality.; November 9, 2007 at 12:12 AM
Roscoe said...: There's a difference here...

Buying the same game 4 times, has previously ammounted to buying a remake, not a tweak.

I.e Buying Final Fantasy for the NES. and the PS1 collection. and the GBA collection.

Zelda games are very much new games, even when the core content is similar, the presentation and order and the like aren't.

I'll admit this gets blurred when you add in things like Metroid: Front Mission or the GBA Final Fantasies, with the additional content. Even the DS 3 or 4.

Hell.. you could make a case for Mario 64 DS.... what with it's alternate characters playthrough?; November 9, 2007 at 2:49 PM
_J_ said...: Zelda games are very much new games, even when the core content is similar, the presentation and order and the like aren't.

True. They aren't direct ports.

They are sort of like bizarro versions of the same thing, though. So whenever Nintendo creates a new console they create a new bizarro reality atop the previous reality.

That explains why everyone feels compelled to continually buy these games; bizarro logic is at play.; November 9, 2007 at 3:10 PM
MA17 said...: Maybe think of a game series as being sort of like a TV series. A good episode in a TV series is going to repeat the elements that make it a cohesive series, and yet introduce enough change to keep it interesting. The difference, I guess, is that game series tend to repeat the overarching plot (Link saves Zelda, a Belmont slays Dracula, Samus kills the Metroids, Sonic sucks a dick) and get away with it in ways a TV show would be hard pressed to emulate (except for Scooby-Doo).; November 9, 2007 at 5:11 PM
MA17 said...: And I like game remakes, even if (or especially if) I've played the original. In one sense it's like buying an album on CD that you already own on cassette, but video games are still a young medium which is partially tied to the ongoing growth of technology, so what worked 10 years ago might not still work today, so if a remake gets a graphical and/or gameplay overhaul, it can become a more desirable product for me.

And even if it's just a straight port, like a lot of the (S)NES to GBA ports, we at least get portability out of the switch, and that can be worth it to me.

Furthermore, ports are important because they can introduce the game to a new audience. It can become a fairly substantial investment of time and money to buy an original game and the platform needed to play it if you don't already have both.; November 9, 2007 at 5:20 PM
Roscoe said...: Agreed to a point.

As much as I loved getting Zelda : Link to the Past on GBA?

I never, EVER played that sucker, except to try Four Swords.

I always STARTED to play it... but.. it's Link to the Past.. 'd beaten it more times than classic Game Boy Final Fantasies.

and it didn't really ADD or tweak anything. the graphics weren't any different. Obviously, becuase they were still good graphics. but there was nothing NEW there.

I guess what I'm getting at is some ports are simply bought for overinflated nostalgia and promise.

It's harder to make that claim for full on new iterations of a series, simply by virtue of the new mechanic/scenario,whathaveyou, the NEW of the new game, if you will.; November 10, 2007 at 12:38 PM
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Everyone Is a Sith

Wednesday, November 7, 2007

I hate Zelda, too.

23 comments:

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