Saturday, July 5, 2008


....Because Diablo III is coming out at some point in the future


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_J_ said...

You mock the clicking...

Mike Lewis said...


_J_ said...

I enjoy Diablo related clicking.

kylebrown said...

So I watched The Brothers Solomon today. Very funny movie.

_J_ said...

I heart GoB

Roscoe said...

I'm just afraid you're gonna ruin your mouseing hand before it's here.

Carpal Tunnel is the Demon's Curse.

wait.. Franklin?

Roscoe said...

Eyebabies are back in today's YAD

_J_ said...

I like days when I wake up thinking about interesting things.

I also like days when I wake up realizing that I only have 24 work days left before I leave.

I especially like days when Ziggy Stardust is playing on the radio when my alarm goes off.

But I hate baseball cards.

Roscoe said...

Man.. just becuase the gum has gone terribly terribly bad..

that's no reason to hate.

_J_ said...

They don't do anything. It's collection for the sake of having rather than collection for the sake of utility.

Roscoe said...

there's something admirable in that, but i suspect your issue is more the crafting of a product that is designed entirely for that...

kylebrown said...

Just about every collection a person maintains is a collection for collection's sake...

_J_ said...

"A report out last week found out that the Justice Department has been illegally filtering applicants for their Honors Program based on political affiliation. The Honors Program is basically how you get hired as an attorney by the Justice Department. The main person involved in this, and apparently the subsequent destruction of the application records, is Esther Slater McDonald. Esther Slater McDonald is a graduate of Pensacola Christian College.

Are you FUCKING kidding me?!

Roscoe said...


That was why I sought out the Eyebabies article in the first place.

_J_ said...

"Just about every collection a person maintains is a collection for collection's sake..."

Not really. Well, arguably.

The reason for collecting can be collecting. But the things collected can have utility. Magic cards are used to play Magic, Watches are used to tell time, porn is used for jacking off, etc.

Paintings are for lookin', similar to baseball cards, and paintings appreciate in value, similar to baseball cards. One could decorate a room with paintings or baseball cards, I guess. Paintings are unique, but I guess someone, a very stupid someone, could collect mass-produced replications of paintings and think them valuable.

I think my hatred of baseball cards is based in their being the quintessential example of needless North American consummerism. The cards themselves do not do anything, are not used for anything other than running through bicycle spokes to make noises (cue some stupid Roscoe comment), but moreover the primary market for baseball cards is children. Baseball cards are for many an introduction to buying for the sake of having; baseball cards are the device by which "collect them all" is instilled in young human beings.

And that "collect them all" is not an opportunity for someone to talk about pokémon.

Roscoe said...

The primary market's not kids, not anymore.. and they have a possible use in collecting stats of players.

But the primary market is niche collectors, which mostly means sports fans. You're making a mistake similar to assuming comicbooks are primarily for kids..

They were once marketed entirely at a youth audience, but that has significantly shifted.

Interestingly both businesses are attempting to remarket towards kids again.

I do get what you're saying though.. and I kinda agree. Just noting that you're talking halfways out of your ass, based on preconceptions that are rooted in historical appearance, not modern factual grounds.

_J_ said...

Are the majority of people who buy baseball cards under 18 or over 18?

Roscoe said...

Further musing.. in the past two decades, I'd go so far as to argue that action-figures have done more to further the collection mindset than baseball cards, at least amongst children.

I know you will argue that those have some sort of appreciable use, at least relative to Baseball Cards.. and I'm curious how much of that is related to the degree of how those cards "aren't for you...."

But seriously, during our late childhood/adolescence, the Sports card market moved towards SERIOUS collectors/investors. And that market burst about the same time as the Comics investor bubble. couple that with the spate of sports bankruptcies at the time, and the market contracted HARD. Stores were selling off cards only in shrink-wrapped boxes, like to Magic players, but at some deep discounts. Even as it rehabilitated itself, the market focused first on sports memorabilia collectors.. like those who would shop at Clem's, on the other side of the store, first..

kylebrown said...

And how exactly do baseball card collections differ from any of these?

Roscoe said...

The majority of those who bought them when?

Most of the era you're thinking about, and currently? Over 18.

kylebrown said...

The baseball cards are representative of something the owner enjoys. Similar to collecting pop culture (such as star wars) memorabilia. They serve no real purpose and are collected for the sake of collecting.

Roscoe said...


I love me some Rammstein / T.a.T.u. collaborations.

_J_ said...


The CNN article has a bunch of different collections each of which can be assessed on their own merits. Action figures can be played with. Vinyl/CDs can be listened to. Manga can be read. But then we have beer cans. There's not really anything to do with a beer can, so obviously they and Baseball Cards are the same sort of thing.

Except they aren't.

Baseball cards exist for the sake of being collected; that is all they do and the only reason for which they exist. Baseball cards can be used for marketing, as they were back in the day for Tobacco companies. But why would someone want a baseball card given to them by a Tobacco company? To have it. Why? For the sake of having it.

And, sure, many of things exist simply for the sake of having them. Autograph collections, for example.

The difference is that baseball cards exist as part of an industry which produces them, markets them, sells them to consumers who want them for the sake of having them. At no point in a baseball card's existence does it have utility other than its being desired by collectors.

Roscoe said...

And this is where I think you have a grain of truth, something important..

But.. 1) it's worth recognizing that the market SHIFTED into such a configuration, that it was not crafted to be such, just like all memoriabillia.

and 2) the argument that they have no use beyond collecting purposes fundamentally misses the point of all of the things you note. Those things only have alternative uses if the collector acknowledges them. Just as cards collect the vital statistic data of their respective players. You don't belive there is any value in that. But to the collector? There's alternative use right there. It's no different than packaged video games. I can buy Ogre Battle in it's original pacakging.. or I can open it and play it.

On the one hand, it's a collectable. On the other, it's a game. same for the cards. On the one hand, there is value in their collectable nature. On the other, value as an statistical artifact of a sports fan, of informative value to that particular player and season, as reference material, basically.

_J_ said...

"Similar to collecting pop culture (such as star wars) memorabilia."

One difference to which I will point is historical in that baseball cards came first. But that is not to say that history is the most important feature.

If we want we can argue that Star Wars exists to generate merchandise and memorabilia. We can also argue the baseball exists to generate merchandise and memorabilia. So we can equate star wars merchandise and baseball cards.

Except a plastic light-saber enables a child to immitate Luke Skywalker. A piece of cardboard with a picture does not enable a child to immidate Babe Ruth.

Piece of cardboard with a picture and some text on it. Why does it exist? What can one do with it? The accumulation of those qualities is what makes baseball cards different. Any particular quality of baseball card collecting can be found in many other sorts of collections. But I'm talking about those foundational aspects of baseball cards; why they were created in the first place. They were made to be collected.

Well, they were initially made as a marketing ploy. But why would someone want the item? To collect it.

It's not that difficult a point to see. Anything can be collected. But Baseball cards only exist to be collected. They're just objects to collect.

Roscoe said...

You're looking to argue a case against an attitude, but you're jumping ahead of your facts, Jay.

The attitude is worth arguing against.. but it's broader, and it's interpretational. Which is a problem for you, becuase you're outside of experience with the subject, so your interpretations are misinformed.

You're Fox Newsing a subject, and scapegoating it for a broader issue.

There's a lot of what you're looking for in Baseball Cards.. but it doesn't stem from there, it's shaped to FIT that.

Roscoe said...

What purpose does Adam's Han Solo cardboard standup serve?

kylebrown said...

I fail to understand how a collector who buys an action figure and never removes it from the box to ensure its "worth" is somehow better than a baseball card collector, just because the action figure collector can remove it from the box but never will.

How do you feel about beanie babies or willow tree statues? These too are things that are essentially created for no other reason than collection. Are they somehow better than baseball cards because they aren't made out of cardboard?

_J_ said...

"as reference material, basically".

That occurs after the fact.

Randomization in baseball card packs is done to foster purchasing and collecting. One does not randomize reference material, package reference material with bubble gum. Yes, if one has an aversion to the internet one can utilize baseball cards as a historical record of past performance of players. But that is not why they exist.

They exist to be bought and collected.

Roscoe said...

They exist to make money. Not be collected.

First and foremost, you need to note that.

Granting that the money is made by the attitude that they are to be collected, you need to next follow up and show that need for collection is a bad thing.

Becuase right now, you're singling them out for something that they alone are not guilty of.

Roscoe said...

Again. Interpretational. You're stating that the cards can only have one Purpose in Existence.

And I reject that, on the basis that you're not familiar enough with them to rationally accept any other purpose.

My point was they serve multiple purposes to the fans who are collecting them, just as all collections do, to their collectors.

_J_ said...

I hate baseball cards, not necessarily collectors.

I hate baseball cards because they were the first major institutional product created for the sake of collecting whose marketing focused upon promoting the purchase of themselves.

Sure we can extrapolate qualities of baseball cards off onto Magic Cards or beanie babies or whatever. But baseball cards did it first, did it well. Baseball cards are what sparked that notion of "collect them all" as a marketing ploy AND coupled an inert object with something already maintaining national recognition: Baseball.

It's the quintessential example of convincing people to buy shit purely for the sake of having that shit. It was all marketing. Baseball cards leeched their popularity off of baseball. They had no utility but maintained value due to people wanting them due to...people wanting them.

Yes, it's been replicated numerous times since then. But baseball cards are the object which established that method of marketing as viable and did it to such a degree that it permeated American Culture in a lasting way.

Roscoe said...

"I hate baseball cards because they were the first major institutional product created for the sake of collecting whose marketing focused upon promoting the purchase of themselves."

Woah, my ass they were. This is supposition, pure and simple.

You're free to hate here, but it's entirely based upon a hatred of a ethos. Baseball cards aren't responsible for the collection mentality, and neither is baseball card marketing. Hate star-worhip, or hate capitalism, or what have you, but get your focus straight.

You're basically hating promotionalized collected goods.

Which isn't where you started. You started at indoctrinational hatred.

I can point you towards Japan which has been doing the collection thing forever.

With time away from work? I could likely point you to pre-industrial collection efforts as well.

I know for a fact collection as a theme exists in old literature. Only there, it was focused upon as averice and miserdom.

Is your issue the Creation of Useless Goods, and the Manufactured "Need" for them, and their wastefulness?

Or is it something else?

_J_ said...

"Is your issue the Creation of Useless Goods, and the Manufactured "Need" for them, and their wastefulness?"

Coupled with a focus on cardboard, yes. Then you combine that with product costs vs. price and a marketing aimed at children and bla bla bla I hate baseball cards.

Roscoe said...

But the point Kyle and I are both making is that you're justifying the hate with shoddy reasoning.

I really do think you've got a real point to make with it.. but..
you're fixing it to a number of faulty premises and assumptions...

Anyways. I do have to ask what the difference between baseball cards and cardboard Han Solo cutouts are. or.. worse.. Threepio cutouts. Just pictures and text on cardboard. at least the cards are small, and have facts on them, not just a logo and indicia.

Roscoe said...

I guess what I've been trying to get at is a lot of your hatred comes from not really having any interest in baseball.

So the cards become utterly without merit. Whereas another collectable has some way to justify it's merit. Because there's at the minimum a neutral judgement to the product.

_J_ said...

"I do have to ask what the difference between baseball cards and cardboard Han Solo cutouts are."

But baseball cards did it first, did it well. Baseball cards are what sparked that notion of "collect them all" as a marketing ploy AND coupled an inert object with something already maintaining national recognition: Baseball.

It's the quintessential example of convincing people to buy shit purely for the sake of having that shit. It was all marketing. Baseball cards leeched their popularity off of baseball. They had no utility but maintained value due to people wanting them due to...people wanting them.

Yes, it's been replicated numerous times since then. But baseball cards are the object which established that method of marketing as viable and did it to such a degree that it permeated American Culture in a lasting way.

_J_ said...

"I guess what I've been trying to get at is a lot of your hatred comes from not really having any interest in baseball."

Don't address what you think is the base of what I'm saying.

Address what I'm saying.

Roscoe said...

I've been doing that.

And I reject the idea that Baseball cards did collection products first. Absolutely reject that.

You're discounting the utility that the cards have, on the basis that you have no interest in then, and on those grounds, declaring them the original product.

What I'm saying is that the attitude existed far before the product, and applies to ALL producted collectables. Hell, it applies to jewelry, meaningless adornments that are crafted out of rare nonreplaceable materials whose only purpose is to be bought and displayed.

What I'm addressing is your own stated hatred of baseball cards, and how that influences your argument. You're starting from a position, and trying to support it.

Start from the evidence, and form your position from it.

Basic Thesis Writing here, Jay.

Roscoe said...

Where is everyone?

Others! I demand you speak! if only to push us onto other topics!

I can't take another week of Jay vs. Kyle vs. I.

_J_ said...

"Where is everyone?"

You have the mistaken understanding that people other than myself primarily post here.

Andrew and Caleb lurk. Mikey is self-described "busy" despite his lack of job/classes/vaginas. For all I know Jolly died, and the girls are...probably dead as well. Adam is asleep during the day.

We don't get many anon. posts because nobody reads the blog despite us getting 100ish unique hits a day.

I mostly just bitch here with no expectation of anyone seeing it. It's a nice change for at least two other people to occasionally post.

Roscoe said...

fair point.

I posted while I was on campus...

the timing was haphazard, but I posted muchly.


what nights are you not up to things this week?

Roscoe said...

Man, I want to play the new Capcom Vs. so bad..

Capcom vs. Gatchaman characters, Casshern, and Tekkaman the Space Knight?

Yeah.. that's my kinda what the hell righ there.

_J_ said...

Monday: Raid
Tuesday: Maybe ZA
Wednesday: Raid
Friday: Maybe ZA
Saturday: Raid

ZA schedule depends on the work schedules of the fuckhead paladin tank who is an awesome paladin tank but needs to get a real job. And since two of my likely ups come from ZA I want to be there. Plus the group is fun and we were only 5 minutes away from getting a bear mount last Friday.

Roscoe said...

Keen.. so possibly free on Tues and Fridays, but those are also the days you MOST want to play.

just fixing dates in my skull.

Does the possible holliday time off factor into that?

_J_ said...

I play with canadians. Their july 4th is on Tuesday, I think. Well, the healer is canadian, one of the tanks is canadian, I think a DPS is canadian.

The problem right now is that the things I need from the 25 person instances require me to be there for all of the runs so that I can maintain my DKP lead over other players who want the same shit as I do. Once I get my new pants and my ring I ought to be able to slack off because I'll be approaching grad school time and then raiding won't matter so much.

Even if I stop playing for grad school I still want to have the gear on my character, if that makes any sense. Mostly because it is stuff that I won't be able to get after the expansion comes out and people stop running those instances.

_J_ said...

Actually, Thursday is the day on which I most likely won't have anything to do. And since that's day before 4th I won't have to go to sleep.

Now watch fuckhead the wonder canuck not have to work on thursday.

But since ZA requires 4 days to reset if we go Thursday we can't go friday.

This is the point at which a sane person would say "Why do you play that game?"

Roscoe said...

Interesting. I'm off Thurs and Fri, I think..

no one's SAID that to me, but it's been floating around..

Roscoe said...

Oh, man.. Byran Lambert's informal forum review of Etrian Odyssey 2 is great.

Basically it's "What the hell is wrong with me?"

Roscoe said...

......... Rock Band and Rock Band 2 DLC will be cross compatible??!

_J_ said...

"Rock Band and Rock Band 2 DLC will be cross compatible??!"

1) Link or it didn't happen.
2) That is damn reasonable. Hell, that surpasses reason.

Roscoe said...

Kotaku had it somewhere..

it was in Lambert's forum, but that software's all sortsa unlinkable currently.

_J_ said...

Boss and his wife saw Wanted this weekend. This was her assessment:

"It wasn't realistic."

Now I have another person who I must understand to be a Macaw.

Roscoe said...

Curved Bullet Trajectories.

There's a whole wonderful backstory to Wanted.. in that it's a comic book adaptation that had to LIBERALLY adapt just about everything.

kylebrown said...

I don't exactly understand people who go to movies about fantastical heroes and expect realism...

Roscoe said...

no Heroes in Wanted..

but.. yeah.. agreed.

kylebrown said...

Have you seen wanted? A case could easily be made for both Jolie's character (fox) and McAvoy's character Wesley as being heroes.

Roscoe said...

.. fair enough. I'm going off of the original comics.. which is basically a reworked Secret Society of Supervillians pitch.

but.. it IS liberally adapted, so.. I should refrain from that comment.

_J_ said...

Do we have any definition for what constitutes a "Hero"? Right now my operating definition is "person with super powers for some reason".

And by that definition the women from Variable Geo count.

Roscoe said...

I was thinking along the lines of Hero vs. Protagonist..

.. man..

down this path lies madness and bloodshed.

_J_ said...

Artie is a Hero.

Superman is not a Hero. Superman is an alien. Unless Heroes are aliens.

Or maybe Heroes is just fucking stupid and that asian guy needs to stop getting bit parts in movies.

Roscoe said...

I dunno.. becuase of his damned spinnoff Get Smart movie, we get Patrick Warburton as H.Y.M.I.E.

Which.... is pretty damned close to the original.

Roscoe said...

Excel sheet for work. Finished. 2012 or so rows of data. Complete with appx. 2 weeks off for stomach crap.

and still complete much earlier than expected.

whee for real boredom now.

_J_ said...

So, Guitar Hero: Aerosmith came out.

Anybody? Anyone?

Alright, then.

Uh, Grape Nuts. No Grapes. No nuts!

Nothing? Alright...

kylebrown said...

A hero is a protagonist. Normally fighting on the perceived side of good. A SUPERHERO is a hero with powers beyond that of regular mortals.

Being a hero does not necessitate being human in any way.

_J_ said...

I thought we were talking about heroes in terms of Heroes.

Also, reading Dark Night pre-reviews makes me nervous. Because Heath Ledger died. So I don't know how much reviewers are gushing because he died. It's worse when they mention his death and say that they aren't gushing because he died.

I thought Batman Begins was a pile of silly, pretentious crap. So when reviewers say that Dark Knight is "better" than Batman Begins I don't know if they mean actually better or more silly and more pretentious.

kylebrown said...

no, we are talking about the concept of a hero in relation to Wanted. I can absolutely understand and make an argument that there are no heroes in wanted, also. But I can also make a damned good argument for both Fox and Wesley as heroes.

Roscoe said...

Dark Knight. Because it's a multi level pun. Dark Knight - protector who works at night.

Dark Knight Detective.

And.. Kyle, don't EVER conflate a hero with a protagonist in the general vicinity of me again.

A hero need not be a protagonist, nor a protagonist a hero.

To wit, the antihero is not the antagonist.

Roscoe said...

sweet. paid holiday despite being a kinda Kelly employee.

Anyone seen this Atlus Party RPG?

kinda like an RPG-ish Mario Party plus the worst backstabbing aspects of Zelda: Four Swords?

kylebrown said...

Did you not read the second sentence directly after I compared a hero to a protagonist? Qualifiers damn you! Qualifiers!

_J_ said...

Texas teen is a real-world 'Guitar Hero'

That article is full of confusion and incorrect.

Also, what does "real world 'Guitar Hero'" mean? Isn't "guitar hero" real world?

_J_ said...

Apparently Eddie Murphy is done making movies.


Roscoe said...

But that's a seperate sentence! It's not a qualifier, it's a seperate thought!

I call bullshit upon your thought structure!

So speaketh I!

kylebrown said...

A qualifier doesn't necessarily have to exist in the same sentence. I call bullshit on your closed view of thought structures.

Roscoe said...

You have your logic backwards, though.

You make a blanket statement that is wrong, not a comparison, then you attempt to modify it.

You attempt to bring nuance to the protagonist, but your subject is the hero.

It would be ever so slightly more acceptible to say a protagonist is the hero, generally fighting for something that's considered good.

no. I'm sorry. The Council rejects your supposition. You may refile in 5 buisness days.

_J_ said...

I avoid these sorts of problems by using semicolons; that way everything is one sentence.

Counting today I have only 23 workdays left till I no longer have to come into the office. Huzzah!

The idea is for me to do remote work from grad school so that I don't have to get a shitty part time job down there. Also, boss said he is fine with me installing photoshop and frontpage and whanot on my laptop after I reformat. So that is freaking keen.

Roscoe said...


_J_ said...

He wants me to write a guidebook explaining how to do what I do.

The problem is that I pull most of it out of my ass.

So I have to articulate and find a system for "Stand next to things. Push buttons which seem to be appropriate to pushing. Get angry at people on First Read feedback forums. Hide in bathroom."

_J_ said...

Chapter 1: Playing Gameboy in the Handicap stall

Time management is a key to restroom related slacking. If one spends too little time no progress can be made in one's game. If one spends too much time then co-workers may begin to make inquiries into the health of your colon. The trick is to remain vigilant.

Pay attention to who pays attention to you. Notice who notices you. Once you understand how co-workers understand you your restroom pokémon farming can begin!

Lunch is often the best time of day for restroom pokémoning. Time your trips to match the lunch schedules of co-workers. But lunch is far too late to catch a teddyursa! How, then, to catch morning pokémon?

This is the beauty of the server room...

Roscoe said...

Oh, man.. this isn't chat thread material, this is new thread material. with a new post for each chapter.

_J_ said...

That is an idea...

New computer would be expensive. But so tempting. Hrm.

Roscoe said...

so I spent a good hour and a half standing around watching people realize the project they have for me next is totally undoable, becuase no one knows where the material is.

Literally standing at watching three women discuss the situation, and realize they've only two boxes of what they expected and that's mostly organized allready.

_J_ said...

Were the women hot?

Roscoe said...

not especially so.

perhaps if you are in the market for older models.

_J_ said...

They probably need new gaskets.

I hate replacing gaskets.

Roscoe said...

Better just to buy new.

Mike Lewis said...

shacknews has a massive round-up on everything we know about diablo iii

_J_ said...

"Loot is now generated per player. You only see the loot that you can pick up, which Blizzard hopes will create a spirit of cooperation. "



Roscoe said...


_J_ said...

Just got Frostscythe of Lord Ahune

Rawr I has Scythe!!

_J_ said...

Episode 3 is on.


_J_ said...

I kept trying to figure out where I heard Hellboy's voice before.

He was Slade! OH!

Mike Lewis said...

Crono Trigger for the DS. I can here Kyle squealing already

Roscoe said...

Yes. Ron Pearlman was many, many things.

and.. YES. Time to get my Robo on.

kylebrown said...

Wow.. why would they possibly generate loot on a per player basis? That is messed up.. I hope you can at least trade loot...

kylebrown said...

And yes, I am squealing with utmost glee right now about CT for DS. Hopefully they update graphics as they did with FF3 and 4.

_J_ said...

"why would they possibly generate loot on a per player basis"

Because dickheads who previously were not on the development teams for games have a baseless compulsion to "improve shit" by BREAKING THE FORMULA WHICH MADE THE GAME ENJOYABLE.

Also, I'm glad that Chrono Trigger is on the list of "Games ported to the DS before Final Fantasy 7".

That's fucking terrific. Because who the god damned fuck would want FF7 for DS when we can have Chrono Trigger? I mean, think about it. The Chrono Trigger movies, the Chrono Trigger anime, the plethora of Chrono Trigger action figures? It just makes sense. You need to focus on porting properties which have the largest fanbases. So, Chrono Trigger.

_J_ said...

They had PopTarts in the vending machine. I am now eating a PopTart.

PopTarts are fucking disgusting.

Though, you can really taste the Riboflavin.

kylebrown said...

Believe it or not, Chrono Trigger actually has as large if not larger of a fanbase than FF7.

Roscoe said...

(typed as Kyle posted)
Oh, my god.

That was the most blatant baiting of Kyle I've seen, J.

There wasn't even an insincere, secretly an insult, type of half-ass attempt to cover it.

Because.. really. FF 7? Over the PURE GAME that is Chrono Trigger?

Roscoe said...

Screw Pop Tarts. Toaster Strudels or better, or go home.

I mean.. there's GOT to be better junk in your Vending Machine.

Think Gas Station. Get a Zero Bar.. or some terrible Beef Sticks.. Or.. god forbid... an Oreo Cakester.

_J_ said...

"That was the most blatant baiting of Kyle I've seen, J."


"Because.. really. FF 7? Over the PURE GAME that is Chrono Trigger?"

Your task is to define "PURE GAME". And you may not use your ass as a source.

Mike Lewis said...

crono trigger is now offial and out by the end of the year

_J_ said...

Also, for future reference, when I get to teach intro Philosophy classes? "your ass" will be an admissible source provided that correct citation is used.

Roscoe said...

That will be the greatest breakthrough in Philosophy ever..

ALSO, the cornerstone of it's downfall.

But in truth? Let me point out, using your own examples, how the entirety of Chrono Trigger's fanbase is a fan of the game.

Every element you mentioned of FF7's popularity? Non-Game Material. References to the game itself, or it's sequels? Nil. Despite multiple direct sequels (Crisis Core, Dirge of Cerberus).

Chrono Trigger's fanbase is entirely a fan of the game, and the story contained therein. FF7's Fanbase appears to be equally, if not more, entertained by the surrounding ephemera.

_J_ said...

"Chrono Trigger's fanbase is entirely a fan of the game, and the story contained therein. FF7's Fanbase appears to be equally, if not more, entertained by the surrounding ephemera."

I said you could not use your ass.

Roscoe said...

You're the one who justified the remake of a game by non-game material.

I'm just pointing out that it's a faulty justification for a game remake, when I can point to a Chrono Trigger remake that sold well, and at least two games coming from 7, (MORE if you count things like the bit in FF X-2 that sets up 7) that did not sell well.

Why look at ancillary material in seperate mediums when there's ancillary material within the medium to consider?

kylebrown said...

Final Fantasy 7 is basically the sell out of the RPG world. The people who consider FF7 to be the best rpg are to the RPG world as the people who consider Halo to be the best FPS are to the FPS world.

There are much better games that came before these. Before the genres became popular. Chrono Trigger is the original RPG masterpiece. I don't think an RPG that came before it, and very few that came after it can even compare.

_J_ said...

Chrono Trigger has already been ported a few times. That's not to say that they can't port it again. But, FFVII.

Roscoe said...

I can think of.. one port... were there two?

Truth, I think 7 needed itself a mighty editor to come in and hack down some excess... then again.. a lot of rpgs of the era did.

Chrono Trigger, not so much... probably because structurally, the story was tied to what you did or didn't do...

_J_ said...

True. And Chrono Trigger probably requires far less storage and conversion.

kylebrown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
kylebrown said...

Both Final Fantasy 7 and Chrono Trigger have been ported exactly once.

Roscoe said...

It is to be assumed, yes.

who deleted? double post? or something sinister?

kylebrown said...

I did. Made a typo. I hate typos.

Roscoe said...

ah.. was curious, is all, what with Anon floating around.

_J_ said...

Final Fantasy 7 was ported? You're going to say that either the Playstation or Windows versions were ports....oh man...That is an epic finger pointing, table pounding semantic argument right there.

I'm going to say it was released in 97 for Playstation and released in 98 for Windows.

I'm going to cite Rock Band as support for that. Rock Band was released for PS3, Xbox 260 in 07. Rock Band was released for Wii in 08.

I'm going to say Chrono Trigger was released in 95. It was ported in 01.

_J_ said...

Man..."porting" could get into a delightful little argument.

Porting is about adapting to a new platform. But are we talking about the code, the story, the graphics? What has to "adapt" for a thing to be a port? Does there have to be an original for there to be a port? Was Rock Band "ported" or was it made for each system?

This will be fun...

Roscoe said...

wouldn't the basic definition be whether or not the program in question was designed for that platform?

Because.. FF7? Clearly a port. Eidos did the recoding and redistributing.

Rock Band, GH3? Questionable.

GH2-360? Arguably a port, though a fair ammount of work went into improving it, and designing the online backend.

But we accept additional content as ports on rereleased games.. New dungeons, items, etc., whole new minigames, such as everything on Mario 64 or the original iteration of Four Swords on Link to the Past for GBA.. so we can't just say new content alone keeps things from being a port.

kylebrown said...

The windows version was clearly a port. As far as I'm concerned, a port is redistributing a game on another system due to popularity.

There was no intention of releasing FFVII on the PC at initial launch. Only due to popularity was it released on the PC.

_J_ said...

"As far as I'm concerned, a port is redistributing a game on another system due to popularity."

We can't say "due to popularity" given the vast number of possible reasons for re-releasing a game on another system.

What about games like Tetris or Lumines or Breakout which exist on multiple platforms? Is the TI-83 version of Breakout a "port"? What was Breakout's native system? Doesn't "port" require that every game has a "native system"?

What is the "native system" for a game released on multiple consoles?

Isn't "port" really just an issue of temporality? If a Harry Potter game is released on 5 different platforms at the same time there's no issue of "porting" given that they were all written for each specific platform. But if a Harry Potter game is released for xbox 360 and a year later the game is released on Wii...then the Wii version is a "port".

So isn't it a time issue more than anything else?

kylebrown said...

No, it is a design issue more than anything else. Software is ported when it is rewritten or modified to operate on a different environment.

_J_ said...

"Earlier video game "ports" were often not true ports, but rather reworked versions of the games."

I don't know what "port" means, I guess. Kyle is saying "rewritten or modified", the wikipedia page is saying both, neither, and one or the other. The internet says both.

"Port" seems to be quite meaningless.

kylebrown said...

There are obviously going to be a lot of gray areas with porting, but FFVII to pc does not exist in that gray area.

_J_ said...

That depends on whether they modified the code or rewrote the game. Unless that's not the defining quality.

If FFVII doesn't exist within the gray area then what does that tell us about the gray area?

Because I would like to know what "port" means.

Roscoe said...

There IS a time issue, but it's not the one you're thinking, Jay. When the initial game is being developed, what system/systems is it being developed for.

A game can have multiple native systems, along the lines of simultaneous releases and phased releases with limited exclusivity.

It's more to do with the development time, than the release time, though.

kylebrown said...

It tells us that games that were originally written for a single system, then modified shortly after for another system do not fall in the gray area?

kylebrown said...

Do me a favor and read the text entitled North American Release Wikipedia specifically states that FFVII for the pc was a port.

_J_ said...

That's the confusion, though:

"In 1998, Final Fantasy VII was ported to Windows-based PCs. This re-release"

Are "port" and "re-release" interchangeable terms?

Then view the Chrono Trigger page:
"Square Enix announced that the title will be revamped for the Nintendo DS"

And just above that:
"Square re-released a ported version by "

Are "revamp" and "port" the same thing? Is a "re-release" a port, indicating that "re-released a ported version" is redundant?

We have:
- port
- re-release
- revamp

Are those all the same thing? If so, why would someone write "re-released a ported version" for Chrono Trigger for Playstation but write "This re-release" for the PC Version of FFVII?

There's no consistency.

_J_ said...

I learned from MSNBC this afternoon that 6 cups of watermellon has practically the same results of a dose of Viagra.

Plus, of course, Vitamin C and the need to piss.

kylebrown said...

A rerelease is the distribution of a game that has already been distributed.

I have already defined a port. The sony greatest hits collections are good examples of rereleases that are not ports.

As far as I can tell a revamping is a port that includes improvements over the original.

_J_ said...

How can Jessica Simpson win a Best Breast Competition?

What the hell criteria are they using?

kylebrown said...

size and shape are normally the criteria used in such a competition...

_J_ said...

I will give Jessica Simpson high scores in neither size NOR shape.

kylebrown said...

Size isn't exactly a subjective category.

_J_ said...

Man, such a decision could get quite involved.

Do we have to consider longevity? Such as, the amount of time for which a given set can maintain a desireable condition? Or do we pick one point in time and assess them at that one moment?

Also we could consider the task for which we are judging. Simply aesthetics? Or do we have to assess them on the grounds of activities in which they could have utility?

Man, I just don't know. I can judge various sets in various contexts. But overall? That is tricky...

_J_ said...

"Size isn't exactly a subjective category."

Then why didn't Nikki Cox win?

kylebrown said...

It is very tricky indeed. The size category must also take into consideration proportion and body type.

_J_ said...

"The size category must also take into consideration proportion and body type."

That's the most important part to me. It needs to all fit together.

With Jessica Simpson the tits always seemed like an afterthought. She has the legs, the eyes, the smile, the hair, and the figure. And then, oh yeah, tits! So they're just there. The rest of her draws you in and then the tits are just sort of there.

As opposed to say an Alyson Hannigan where the whole combination is appealing.

Roscoe said...
Touch My Warp Whistle - m4w - 28 (St. Louis)

Reply to:
Date: 2008-07-03, 8:46PM CDT

Do you love to play Super Mario Brothers on the Classic Nintendo System? Do you like to get tagged from behind while you do it? This is the post for you then.

You must know your way around the game before we meet, must be open to anal sex, also able to fake an orgasm is a plus.

I will send you the address to a hotel and a room number. When you arrive the door will be open. Please come in close and lock the door and close the shades if they are still open. I will be in the bathroom and the door will be closed. Turn on the TV and the Nintendo. Remove all of your clothing. Turn off all lights in the room and kneel down on the bed so you are directly in the light of the TV. You need to be facing the TV with your butt in the air pointed toward the pillows on the bed.

Press the start button on the controller when you are ready. I will hear the sound and turn the light off in the bathroom and come out. You will not look directly at me, only look at the TV. When the first level starts I will begin to finger you and lick you. I will be using lots of lube as well.

When you reach the end of level one, make sure to trigger the fireworks. This is vital to the entire experience. I must hear the fireworks. When level 2 begins and Mario walks into the pipe, I will penetrate you. You may say things like, "MORE", "HARDER", "YES", "FUCK ME", but nothing else. I will continue having sex until the level ends. DO NOT take the secret level skip. If you die I will pull out and spank you until the level restarts.

When you reach the flag you must again trigger the fireworks, and also orgasm. I will pull out. When the 1-3 starts I will penetrate your ass. You are allowed to say something like "OH GOD", "YES", OR "IT HURTS" no other conversation is allowed.

When level 1-4 starts I will alternate between holes as I see fit. You may beg me to cum inside or outside of you, depending on what you want. When boss falls and you reach the princess I will pull out and blow my load where you have convinced me I want too. You may then say something like "Thanks", "It was great", "I loved it", "Don't stop"

If I am impressed you may continue playing and I will continue to pleasure you. If I am not, I will turn the Nintendo Off and return to the bathroom. At this time you may clean your self with the towel that is beside the bed. Turn the lights on, redress yourself and leave.

I may come back out and talk to you as you dress but the conversation will most likely be short and revolve around scheduling another time to get together. Will consider SMB 3 and if you are really nasty we can try SMB2.

kylebrown said...

*blink* *blink*


Roscoe said...

Craigslist is a terrible thing to behold.

"there must be fireworks."

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