Why We Argue
The first post in the comments is a long, and terrible reprinted conversation.
I am clearly full of holes in it, and yet, I'm certain, you'll note what I'm up against, and weep with me.
Friday, June 6, 2008
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17 comments:
I am clearly full of holes in it, and yet, I'm certain, you'll note what I'm up against, and weep with me.
[14:13] Intrepid Iago: plane? wahtever
[14:14] Caffinenation: That defense only works when you're funny.
[14:14] Caffinenation: and you had it right the first time.
[14:14] Caffinenation: Plain. as in toppings.
[14:27] Intrepid Iago: only a fool settles for a plain pizza. it
[14:28] Intrepid Iago: 'd be like a sow turning up her snout at pearls.
[14:28] Caffinenation: no one said pizza, Chris.
[14:30] Intrepid Iago: toppings implies pizza. not always, but usually.
[14:30] Caffinenation: it does nothing of the sort!
[14:31] Caffinenation: Toppings go on nearly half the world's edibles.
[14:31] Caffinenation: the only implications Toppings alone has is spatial.
[14:32] Caffinenation: above and below. taht's it.
[14:32] Intrepid Iago: pizza. toppings go on pizza
[14:33] Caffinenation: and burgers. and pasta. and flatbread. and subs. and nachos.
[14:33] Intrepid Iago: immaterial. toppings go on pizza.
[14:34] Caffinenation: No, actually precisely material.
[14:34] Intrepid Iago: but the word 'toppings' just happens to also be useful as a description for those other things
[14:34] Caffinenation: toppings imply nothing but positioning.
[14:34] Caffinenation: there must be a layering to the topic for it to have toppings, as they go on top.
[14:35] Intrepid Iago: granted. thats why toppings go on pizza. and just happen to apply to those other things
[14:35] Caffinenation: You clearly don't understand the word imply, then.
[14:35] Intrepid Iago: 'connotates' might work better.
[14:35] Intrepid Iago: my point still stands
[14:35] Caffinenation: No! again, it does not!
[14:36] Caffinenation: Connotate means CONTEXT. and my whole point was no one MENTIONED pizza as a context.
[14:37] Intrepid Iago: but the concept of 'toppings' is meaningless without the concept of 'pizza'. thus, the one implies and connotates the other.
[14:37] Intrepid Iago: its how the human brain works, afterall
[14:38] Caffinenation: Once again, the concept is NOT meaningless, as it applies to plenty of things wtihout pizza. what it implies and connotates, both, is spacial proximity.
[14:38] Caffinenation: As in. top.
[14:38] Caffinenation: Jesus, man, you can't even hold your own in an argument.
[14:40] Intrepid Iago: but the concept of pizza is like the seed from which all other layered dishes arise. Without pizza, the rest just dissolve into non-sense. Its like how the oak tree is the dream/song of the acorn. the pizza is the seed of our layering concept. thus, toppings implies pizza.
[14:40] Caffinenation: no, it's really not.
[14:40] Caffinenation: this is your problem in an argument.
[14:40] Intrepid Iago: DREAM/SONG!!!
[14:40] Caffinenation: you don't start from a case that's unassailable.
[14:41] Intrepid Iago: anything is assailable when you bring dream/songs into the equasion.
[14:42] Caffinenation: .... You're going to seriously tell me that topping comes from Pizza.
[14:42] Caffinenation: let me show you something..
[14:42] Caffinenation: it's called a dictionary.
[14:43] Caffinenation: it's got this wonderful thing called etymology.
[14:43] Caffinenation: tells you where a word came from.
[14:44] Intrepid Iago: the dictionary is only the dream/song of the lexiconographer. It has no objective meaning.
[14:45] Caffinenation: so, now you're unfamilar with the definition of the words you use, AND with the concept of indepenent verification.
[14:46] Caffinenation: It's like talking with the opposite of a high-functioning austism sufferer. You've no critical faculty, only fanciful ones.
All metaphor without the necessary understanding
[14:47] Intrepid Iago: it's liberating, i tells you!
[14:48] Intrepid Iago: but even if you are a fan of independent varification, still fairly useless.
[14:48] Caffinenation: VERification.
[14:48] Caffinenation: Jesus. Verify. Veritas. Truth.
[14:49] Caffinenation: You're literally shit at everything, aren't you?
[14:49] Intrepid Iago: if you wanted to argue that the dictionary is a means verification, than I would be the one to start on the unassailable position
[14:49] Intrepid Iago: oi! i'm the one that's had 6 years of latin now.
[14:49] Caffinenation: and yet you still fuck things up.
[14:49] Intrepid Iago: i know better than the next bloke the history of the word verify
[14:50] Caffinenation: But you can't SPELL it until someone calls you out, when it's allready in front of you?
[14:50] Intrepid Iago: hehe. bloke. I've been reading too much hellblazers
[14:50] Caffinenation: Also, I also had six years. so stuff it.
[14:50] Intrepid Iago: what's that proove beside the fact that im a bad speller?
[14:51] Intrepid Iago: and what's that matter to anyone? just an ad hominem attack
[14:52] Caffinenation: the hell it is. if you can't put the requisite time and thought into making competent presentation? You clearly can't put it into your argument, either.
[14:53] Caffinenation: It's not remotely Ad Hominem when the point of the discussion currrently is the meaning and history of words.
[14:55] Intrepid Iago: the point of the discussion is the nature of the concept of pizza and toppings and the relationship between them. and an attack against style is still just an ad hominem.
[14:56] Caffinenation: No, again, the nature of discussion was Plain and how it was spelled. Plain as in toppings. As in ordering something plain. which shifted to note that Toppings existed as a word before pizza existed as an object.
[14:56] Caffinenation: if I was attacking your style? you'd be right. I'm attacking your argumentation.
[14:57] Caffinenation: Varification is not Verification, and both are seperate concepts.
[14:58] Caffinenation: Christ. I've spent all day arguing about how Analogies work and enjoyed every moment. here? it's just giving me a headache for taking up my time.
[14:58] Caffinenation: come back when you can compete, will you?
[15:00] Intrepid Iago: who's competing? this isn't some argument to be won! its a smorgasbord of flippancy- a whirlpool of non-meaningful bric-a-brac to throw oneself into; looking for a lark
[15:01] Intrepid Iago: and the main thread of the argument was the toppings and pizza thought. the verification buggery was just a tangent.
[15:01] Caffinenation: No. Again, the thread of the argument was that you were wrong, and toppings doesn't imply anything but spacial stationing.
[15:02] Caffinenation: the Verification was one more thing you decided to throw by the wayside by discounting dictionaries.
[15:02] Caffinenation: In other words. WHAT. WORDS. MEAN.
[15:03] Caffinenation: That's your goddamned problem. You don't have any vested interest in what you say. You don't argue unless you're right, dipshit.
[15:03] Meebo Message: Could not connect to network.
[15:06] Caffinenation: You're not even invested. it's why you can't keep to a single case in an argument, and it's why you're not worth my time.
[15:06] Intrepid Iago: psssh! Words have no meaning outside of the context of other words. everyone knows that! and even if you are willing to operate under the assumption that what meaning words to have will work out, you still can't argue that just because some arsehole's writtin down its meaning, the act of writing it down has actually somehow captured that meaning in a stasis.
[15:07] Intrepid Iago: words do* have
[15:08] Caffinenation: so, then, by your own admission, you had no leg to stand on in this argument, because your own words meant noting.
[15:08] Caffinenation: AGAIN.
[15:08] Caffinenation: GO. THE. FUCK. AWAY.
[15:08] Intrepid Iago: in other words, there's no legitamit authority to verify the meaning of words in the first place.
[15:08] Caffinenation: Until you learn what the hell you're doing.
[15:09] Intrepid Iago: now what about that didn't make sense? any philosopher or anthropologist would agree with me.
[15:13] Meebo Message: You have left the application.
[15:13] Caffinenation: No, it made perfect sense. It also totally undermined your initial position. How the hell do you not see that?
[15:14] Intrepid Iago: what original position?
"toppings implies pizza."
That's where the discussion lost any semblance of having handles.
"what original position?"
One time when Landrew and I were yelling at each other in front of Thorton (cause that was something we did) during a pause in the conversation Thorton said, "You two mostly just argue past each other, don't you?"
I think that same sentiment applies here.
"this isn't some argument to be won! its a smorgasbord of flippancy- a whirlpool of non-meaningful bric-a-brac to throw oneself into; looking for a lark"
I like this kid. He's got moxy.
"the concept of pizza is like the seed from which all other layered dishes arise."
This is the point at which you ought to have invoked the Napoleon.
"[14:40] Intrepid Iago: DREAM/SONG!!!"
Why did he yell "DREAM/SONG!!!"?
he's a damned IS major. sociology.
it's basically your version of Relativism.
Relativity means eveyrthing means nothing!
only more metaphorical. It's his battle cry when he knows he's well in the hole.
also more to do with the lens one views things through.
I live with that next year.
Weep for one such as I.
I live with it and the only guy on campus that I know who CAN give decent argument. He's WRONG, but he can hold his own.
Shay might well take a flight down a story to Garret St below.
I SHOULD have invoked the Napoleon.
DAMNIT.
"he's a damned IS major. sociology."
That's not moxy.
THAT'S NOT MOXY!
What the fuck would a sociology major even be?
Wait a minute...Criss Shay? Martial Arts Chriss Shay?
mmm arguing past each other. I'm good at that.
.. I just realized You edited the post to drag it in here..
Thanks.
it's been a day.
gah
It was pretty long.
(That's what she said)
It WAS? What happened to it? Why wasn't it still long when she said so? OH NOES!!!
Yes, Chris Shay.
Yes, it's not Moxy.
Yeah, we're ALL good at that. DAMNED good, if I do say so.
Except Shay. He can't even stick to a primary argument to refine.
Yes, Chris Shay.
Yes, it's not Moxy.
Yeah, we're ALL good at that. DAMNED good, if I do say so.
Except Shay. He can't even stick to a primary argument to refine.
I fucking hate Chris Shay.
And not in the way I hate Rick. I actually do hate Chris Shay. Because, among other things, he kept yelling when he played Zelda: Twilight Crapfest.
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